Obama understands China has raised tensions over Senkakus, sources say

Obama understands China has raised tensions over Senkakus, sources say

Sources close to Japan-U.S. relations revealed on Saturday that U.S. President Barack Obama told Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe that he understands China has raised tensions with Japan over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea. This statement was made during their summit talks in Washington last month, the sources added.

The meeting was the first between the two leaders, and twice during the discussions, Obama referred to the disputed islands as “Senkaku,” the Japanese name for the isles that are called Diaoyu by China, the sources said. Obama also underlined his appreciation at Japan’s calm responses to China’s actions. The U.S. President proceeded to show a very good understanding toward Tokyo’s stance on the territorial row, the sources said. However, both governments decided not to release any specific statements to avoid further aggravating relations with China.

In the same meeting, Abe confirmed to Obama that Japan plans to protect the Senkakus by itself, but will not do anything to provoke China at this point in time. The Japanese government would calmly respond to any actions that might occur over the islands in the future, they said. Recently, Abe has expressed concern over Chinese vessels’ repeated intrusions into what he claims are Japanese waters near the Senkakus. These concerns were intensified when a Chinese navy frigate directed fire-control radar at a Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer in the East China Sea in January, an event Beijing denies occurred.

During the summit, Obama also mentioned to territorial rows between China and Southeast Asian neighbors such as Vietnam and the Philippines over islands in the South China Sea. Obama said China’s rise is a positive development in the global economic stage, but that the nation must follow international rules, this according to the sources. The two leaders also discussed their views on Iran’s nuclear ambitions, another source close to Japan-U.S. ties said.

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  • Chinditone

    Funny that official Japanese lies are now becoming know as “sources”. The Japanese recently said that the Chinese trained their fire control radar on their ships and that they would provide proof – but they never did. Everyone in the world knows that Obama did not allow Abe in his recent visit to the US to try and pretend that the US supports Japan in its brazen attempts to steal China’s historical Diaoyou islands. The US is not stupid enough to allow itself to be allied to a known thief. Hillary Clinton obviously has lesser morals and she did not care about the legality or the true ownership of the Diayou Islands and encouraged the Japanese to resist giving back the stolen islands to China – to spite China – but Obama is not so silly and has his and the US’s reputation to think about. If Obama is trying to ask China to play by the rules whilst the US is actively helping Japan steal the historically Chinese Diouyou Islands – or saying the US will use US military assets to support Japan’s theft of the islands – then US credibilty would definitely hit rock bottom. I do not think that there is a politician in history who could talk as much hot air as Abe – he would be laughed out of town in the US or UK!! The world know knows that Obama told Abe and Japan that Japan were on their own with the Diaoyou – and that Japan and Abe is still too weak to try and brazen out the theft of the Diaoyou’s – and is simply trying to lie to China ad the world that the US is still on Japan’s side with the Diaoyou’s.

    • Truth

      You write like an idiot. Screaming words like “lie” and “thief” don’t translate well into English. You ought to stick to shouting out Communistic Party slogans from loudspeakers in Beijing for a living.

      If China has a problem, take it to the International Court. That is the way nations do things in the civilized world.

      One thing non-involved observers should realize about China is that its fishing fleet is largely prepared to act as a paramilitary force and that its military uses it. When you read the related stories about “Chinese fishermen” in Japanese waters, what you should realize is that 9 times out of 10 it is a Chinese military or government intervention.

      Japan knows this and knows the difference between them and ordinary fishermen.

      • chinditone

        sTruth – obviously the truth does not matter to you – as you show no attempt to speak it – write it – or try to understand it. Obama did not speak to Abe about the Diaoyou dispute – period!! Its pointless the Japanese now trying to lie that Obama understands and supports the Japan position – as its just a lie. Why does Obama not state it publically if its true? Also, you obviously do not understand English and have sunken to calling me names – as you can’t speak the truth. Theft or stealing = taking something which does not belong to you!! Japanese War Ciminals stole the historically Chinese Diaoyou Islands in 1895 – these islands had been historically Chinese since 1300- see Chinese position in wikpedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute . The Chinese have maps and documents t prove it – the Japanese have nothing!! Its theft – poor and simple. Additionally the Japanese war criminals accepted the Potsdam Declaration after World War 2 when the rest of the world and US defeated the Japanese war criminals – in which the Japanese agreed to give up the stolen Diaoyou Islands.. “The Potsdam Declaration stated that “Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine”, and “we” referred to the victors of the Second World War who met at Potsdam, the USA, the UK and the Republic of China. Japan accepted the terms of the Declaration when it surrendered.” Of course – the US played a part in this as it hated China after WW2 – and held on the Diaoyou Islands and illegally gave it to the Japanese in 1972!! You said “why don’t the Chinese tkae it to the International Court of Justice? Well the Japanese prime minister Noda refused. The Japanese now go on telling lies and refuse to admit that there is a sovereignty issue to avoid getting it solved legally. This is why China and the rest of the world think that the Japanese are liars and thieves. This is why the rest of the world and Obama don’t trust the Japanese – especially with sons of war criminals and right wingers like Abe – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinz%C5%8D_Abe – wanting Japan to be strong militarily so that they can get back to stealing assets in Asia!! Japan has still not apologized for World War 2 – and paid compensation for its crimes – like Germany. The German public are not like the Japanese public!!

        • Far East

          LOL, too funny.
          There has been the Treaty of San Francisco signed in 1951 by 50 nations making and recognizing what Japan is today, and even with Taiwan with the Treaty of Taipei signed in 1952. The Postdam Declaration of 1945, made at gun point was rather nothing more than what it says, ie a declaration, but China uses this only because it is convenient to support its claim, but unfortunately this is incomplete and cherry-picked biased historical data.

          As for the history on the Senkaku, the Chinese Government is trying to refer to some historical documents that mention those islands as a marker in their route to the Ryukyu (Okinawa, part of Japan), but emissary from China at the time used that route only 23 times during 507 years while the Ryukyu people went to China using their route 580 times from 1372 to 1879…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnlr_OBN2uw

          And they should have the honesty of recognizing their true agenda, which is to seize the underground resources those Senkakus islands have. That’s right, a United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) (http://www.unescap.org) report in 1969 stated there is a strong possibility for petroleum and natural gas to be under those islands. Foreign estimates of potential oil reserves on the shelf have gone as high as 100 billion barrels. (Saudi Arabia has “proven and probable” oil reserves of 261.7 billion barrels and the United States 22 billion). The following year, China started claiming the Senkaku islands as theirs.

          The most promising area identified was “a 200,000 square kilometer area just north of Taiwan, or almost exactly the location” of the Senkaku islands. See K.O. Emery et al., Geological Structure and Some Water Characteristics of the East China Sea and the Yellow Sea, 2 UNECAFE/CCOP TECH. BULL. 3 (1969). A copy of the ECAFE report is available here: http://www.gsj.jp/data/ccop-bull/2-01.pdf

          The report concludes on page 41 “A high probability exists that the continental shelf between Taiwan and Japan may be one of the most prolific oil reservoirs in the world.”

          Talk about hypocrisy….

          Bottom line, it was legally terra nullius ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius ), ie no proven trace of being inhabited or controlled, Japan rightfully integrated it in its territory after performing surveys since 1885. China did not care, because they had better things to do at the time ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_Dynasty#Fall_of_the_dynasty ), Subsequently the communist Chinese Government did not care either and Mao was conducting his so-called ‘Great Leap Forward’ mass killing millions of Chinese (estimated to 45 million death between 1958 and 1961 and followed by the Cultural Revolution in 1966, motivated by power struggles within the Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#People.27s_Republic_of_China_.281949.E2.80.93present.29 ). There are even official communist China maps showing those islands as Japanese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PRCmap-senkakuislands.jpg

          Source: Wikipedia. Section of 1969 map published by the People’s Republic of China, showing and identifying the “Senkaku Islands” as Japanese territory.

          This map was revealed by the Washington Time: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/15/inside-the-ring-145889960/

          It is now under the effective sovereignty and control of Japan, and there is nothing that China can do about it. Legally speaking Judge Max Huber of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated that the key aspect for the establishment of a State sovereignty is the “continuous and peaceful display of territorial sovereignty” (The Netherlands v U.S.A. ‘Island of Palmas Case’ [1928] ICJ V II 839). This fits well with the current code of conduct of Japan with regards to its reaction to the threats made to its sovereignty.

          That’s the ugly truth. Enjoy.

          • chinditone

            The reason the Potsdam Treaty was made at gunpoint was because Japan’s war criminal had stolen teh Diaoyou islands in WW2 – stolen parts of Korea andf China pre World War 2 – and had attacked SE Asia and the USA. It was 100% legally correct that the Aliies force Japan and its war criminals to return all lands it had stolen – including the Diaoyou’s. China was not a signoratory of the Treaty of San Francisco which makes the legal control of the Diaoyou’s invalid. The USA was ressiting Communism world wide at the time and deliberately did not retrn the islands to China or Taiwan as it should have done. The bottom line and truth is that Japanese war criminals and those who support theft are 100% unable to produce any historical evidence that Japan owns the islands. If a person buys a valuable item and leaves it in their cellar or attice for 30 years and forgets about ot – it does not give someone else the right to steal that person’s property. Therefore Japan’s arguments are all invlaide legally and are in fact the arguments of a well known liar and theif. Therefore Japan tries to pretend that no-one owned the Diaoyou Islands – which is a blatant lie – as the Chinese have maps and documents to prove it – whilst the Japanese have nothing. Japan and its prime ministers know that the Japanese do not have a legal case to own the Diaoyou’s – which is why the Japanese Prime Minister Noda refused to go to the ICJ: Ahttp://opiniojuris.org/2012/10/03/japanese-pm-confirms-no-icj-for-senkakusdiaoyu-dispute-with-china/. The Japanese know this – which is alos why they deny that their is an issue woth teh Diaoyou’s — so that they don’t have to face any legal arguments. In fact – when it comes to the behaviour of the Japanese over the Diaoyou’s – it is the behaviour of a criminal that belongs in jail. Japan has a long history of theft in Asia – and now the sons of war ciminals are now back running Japan – it looks like Japan is repeating its bad old “war ciminal” mentality of lieing and stealing its way around the world. The German people repented and said sorry for World War 2 and have compensated their Jewish victims – but the Japanese have never apologised to China – Korea – or the rest of Asia and the world for their crimes!! When the world was faced with the Japanese war mentality and lack of humanityt during world war 2 – the rest of the world also lost its humanity and decided to destroy the Japanese as well – dropping the A bomb. If the Japanese are unable to learn from history and refrom their thieving and lieing ways – history wil repeat itself – and the Japanese could again be destroyed. The Japanese need to return to peaceful engagement and its succesful trade with Asia and the world – rather than to theft and violence.

          • Far East

            Awesome :-)

          • Whirled Peas

            FALSE : “The reason the Potsdam Treaty was made at gunpoint was because Japan’s war criminal had stolen teh Diaoyou islands in WW2 etc.”

            *** False because Potsdam had nothing to do with Diaoyu–

            TRUE: ” It was 100% legally correct that the Aliies force Japan and its war criminals to return all lands it had stolen ”

            *** True the Allies made Japan renounce all land taken from China! But Diaoyu wasn’t stolen so no need to return!

            TRUE AND FALSE: “China was not a signoratory of the Treaty of San Francisco which makes the legal control of the Diaoyou’s invalid. ”

            *** True that China wasn’t signatory to the Treaty of SF, but false in that DIaoyu was not related to the Treaty of SF, nor was it mentioned or implied in the Potsdam, nor Cairo since Diaoyu was NOT spoils of war relinquished defined by Treaty of Shimonoseki.

            FALSE: ” The USA was resisting Communism world wide at the time and deliberately did not retrn the islands to China or Taiwan as it should have done ”

            *** The fact China did not get Diaoyu after WWII had nothing to do with fight against communism. China didn’t get Diaoyu because it didn’t own it. At end of WWII Allies recognized Senkakus as part of the Ryukyu and so did China and ROC until oil was found in 1970. . After WWII The Allies determined that it would occupy all Japanese territory until it could prove it was peaceful. US occupied 4 main islands of Japan until 1952 and territory of Okinawa/Ryukyus (to which Senkaku was attached governmentally) until 1972 when the Okinawa Reversion treaty went into effect.

            FALSE ANALOGY: ” If a person buys a valuable item and leaves it in their cellar or attice for 30 years and forgets about ot – it does not give someone else the right to steal that person’s property. ”

            *** A BETTER ANALOGY would be: If a stranger points to your big toe and says hey, that is my big toe. You will reply “Don’t be ridiculous, that is my toe, not yours. It is attached to my foot!” Then when that person says, “Oh, well I disagree, but let’s shelve the issue until a time when we are better prepared to resolve ownership of your big toe, you will say, “You’re crazy. There is no dispute.”

            PLEASE STOP THE MISINFORMATION about Japanese not apologizing. Japan has been a peaceful nation ever since the war. And is very very regretful about the past actions of Imperial Japan (and you know it.). I suppose you feel you strengthen the claim that China owns Diaoyu/Senkaku by mentioning Japan’s past and try to compare it to Germany, but all that talk is just a lot of smoke and mirrors to obscure China’s weak claim.

            Anyway, take a deep breath and carry on. I have a feeling this issue isn’t going to be resolved anytime soon, and it’s not worth getting ulcers over. WP

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            i like this guy^!

          • chinditone

            Whirling Peabrain – you are the master of misinformation – and I have already busted you i other posts as having a pro Japan agenda and not deliberately ignoring or deliberately not looking at the facts.

            The Treaty Of San Francisco is invalid and a fake becuase China did not sign it. If I come to your home and steal all its contents – and then sign a deal with your next door neighbours that your property is now mine – does it mean that I now own your property and that you have no legal cliam to it!! Only an idiot or a thief would believe such legal logic?

            The Potsdam Declaration asked Japan to return all stolen properties – which included the Diaoyou Islands. The Diaoyous were stolen from China in 1895 by the Japanese and the Allies ordered that they be returned – with other stolen war loot – at the Potsdam Declaration!! Japan was limited to owning Japanese Islands – the islands listed in item 8!! Its all here.

            http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

            “(8) The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.

            (9) The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.”

            China has a wonderfully detailed wikipedia of all its historical proof over the Diaoyous? Japan has no historical proofthat it ever owned the Diaoyou’s – because the islands never belonged to Japan!!

            http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island

            My treasure in the attic/cellar analogy stands – and is in fact irrefutable logic – because the Chinese have historical proof that they own the Diaoyou’s – just as I would have historical proof that I owned a long forgotten treasure in my attic. The Japanese have zero historical proof – just as a thief would have no proof that the item they stole – belonged to them.

            If you are going to give a credible argument on this thread – please provide hsitorial proof that Japan owns the Diaoyou Islands – that is earlie than 1895 – when Japan stole them from China

            If Japan is a peaceful nation – why does it not return the stolen Diaoyou Islands to China – which has historical proof that it owns them?

            If Japan is a peaceful nation – why does it have a right wing PrimeMinister – whose grandfather was jailed for war crimes – and who wants Japan to re-arm?

            If Japan is a peaceful nation – why has it not apologised for its war crimes and comfort women?

            If Japan is a peaceful nation – why has it not compensated the Asian World War 2 victims?

            If Japan is a peaceful nation – why do its politicians visit the war shrines of its war criminals. German politicians do not visit the graves of German war criminals who murdered the Jews and did other atrocities?

            I personally would love Japan to prove to Asia and to China that it is indeed a peaceful and honest nation that trades in Asia through its excellent manufacturing skills. An honest nation would apologise for its misdeeds and return the items that it stole – like the Diaoyou Islands. The Russians stole some Kiril islands from Japan after WW2 – and Japan may have a valid historical claim to the Dodko islands – but they do not have a vlaid claim to the Diaoyou!!

          • Whirled Peas

            To be the legitimate owner of the islands Japan does not have to claim that it owned the islands prior to Jan 1895 when it annexed them terra nullius — uninhabited and under effective control by NO other country. China did not start claiming ownership until oil was found — 75 years later.

            China’s current claim is based on visits to the Ryukyu Islands back in the 1600′s in which Chinese ship passengers named the islands as navigational markers, wrote poems, and drew navigational maps. But naming geographical features and indicating them on maps does not mean ownership. I call those Chinese mission officials “passengers” because in most cases, the Ryukyuans had to sail to China to pick up the officials and bring them back to the Ryukyu islands to perform their ceremonies and live off the Ryukyuans hospitality for many months. Ryukyuans were much better sailors, used to treacherous waters and that is why the generous “pick up” service. Chinese officials visited Ryukyus only 22 times in over 500 years while Ryukyuans sailed to China over 500 times in the same period. Don’t you think Ryukyuans named the islands too and drew maps — or knew the area so well, no need for maps!

            When Christopher Columbus sailed from Spain to the new world he passed by many a rock, island, trough, whirlpool, and continent and named them, and drew maps — that’s what you do when you sail. But that doesn’t mean he owned them!

            But even if it were true that the S/D islands appeared on a ancient Chinese map indicated it actually owned the islands, there exist more modern maps from China itself that show it acknowledged the islands were Japan’s. And those modern maps (and the fact Japan has had effective control over the islands since 1895) supersede anything ancient that China can dig up. (Of course we know China is in the process of getting rid of any evidence that runs counter to its current claim on the islands!).

            Maybe China does not realize it, but it is ultimately not in its interest to claim land and boundaries based on ancient maps going back 500 years when it was much smaller in size. If China feels it has the right to claim land based on ancient maps, then to be consistent it must be prepared to relinquish land it did NOT own at that same time. China is inadvertently creating an ideological and legal basis for any region of the country that did not belong to China 500 year ago, or even back in 1850 to secede. I am thinking of Tibet, Xinjiang, and Mongolia.

            Best, WP

          • chinditone

            WP – the Diaoyou’s are 100% China’s – as the historical records and Potsdam Declaration show. There is no getting around the fact – and it is just bad luck for Jpan and they should accept it – or put themselves in a very dangerous position. IMO. I am not a fan of quasi legal scams and Ponzi schemes – usually thought up by fraudulent US lawyers or so called Law-makers. The old or forgotten treasure in the attic/teasure argument stands and is valid. The US is an intellectual lightweight in the world and is 90% of the time – incapable of looking beyond they noses. The US has only a 400 year history when compared to Europe – and when compared to China’s 5000 year history. The US has done very well for itself but its no surprise that its run out of money and ideas. China succesfully expelled the US from its shores during Mao’s time – like him or loathe him – and so China is free to make decisions without having to kow tow to the US. It would not surprise me if the US is not behind the Diaoyou scam – urging Japan to resist China – whilst pretending that its neutral on the issue. The US would love China to fall apart so that it could asset strip China!! When people like for division in China – you can be sure that they are not looking at the interests of 1.3 billion people – but their own interests. China has 5000 years of history and treasures its culture and assets more thna most cultures – and who are lightweights like the US or even US controlled Japan to tell China what to do – or what is best for China. It is obvious that China is only pursueing a legitimate claim over the Diaoyou islands with Japan and no more. Tibet has belonged to China for 800 years – and only a fool would not think that the US is not trying to play divide and rule. Read Michael Parenti on Tibet – very illuminating!! http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html . Whenevr anyone mentions Tibet or the Dalai Llama you can be almost 100% certain that they are talking nonsense or want a divided China. Xinjiang belongs to China and is where China begins to meet the Arab world as its been doing for 1000 years!! The bottom line is that a strong healthy China will enable strong healthy growth for the whole of Asia including Japan. This China backed Asian growth is seen as a threat – rather than an opportunity by some dimwits in Washington and other US power centres. China is still a huge economic opportunity for Japan if Japan gets it right – which is where its politcis and policies should be amied. Look at South Korea which has gotten it right and which is overtaking Japan!!

          • Whirled Peas

            1. Read the original Potsdam Declaration carefully, not the China wiki summary of the declaration. The real thing says nothing about Diaoyu.

            2. Legal scams and ponzi schemes have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

            3. Old and forgotten treasure? NOT. More like those old rocks looked worthless and beneath the Qing Emperor to claim, protect or whatever. But once oil was discover 1968, a campaign was launched by China and overseas Chinese to build a case for Chinese ownership. The lines of argument have not always consistent over time and across various advocates.

            4. The fact that the US is a relatively young country and China goes back further has no bearing on this territorial issue. Neither does US economic crisis, your assertion China shouldn’t have to kow tow to the US (which I agree with), and any other anti-imperialist talk. Please stick closer to the subject.

            5. I am not saying that any region of China should secede.(And by the way I don’t believe your conspiracy theory that the US wants to strip China of its assets). What I am saying is that IF China is going to use old map boundaries to justify its possession of territory then the areas of modern China that were not part of China way back when can use that same argument to justify getting back their old borders, and that’s not in China’s interest.

            6. I agree a strong, healthy China is good for Asia as is a strong healthy Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, etc. But what does that truism have to do with who owns the S/D islands. Nothing.

            7. I also agree that it is in the interest of Japan as well as China and the other Asian countries to have peaceful friendly relations. And I know that discord can hamper economic growth. But it sounds like you are saying to Japan, “You better give us those islands, or you’ll be sorry economically.” That is not argumentation, it is using threats and warnings and dire prognostications to get what you want. Best, WP

          • chinditone

            Whirled Peas – the Potsdam Declaration limted Japan to a set of islands – which did not include the Daioyou or deliberately excluded teh Diaoyou Islands.. There is no getting around it – whichever way you look. It was deliberately excluded from the Potsdam Declaration because the Daioyou were in fact stolen by the Japanese in 1895 – they were war booty – and were thus set up as one of the items to be confiscated by the Allies from the war criminals!! WP – who are you – or who is the US or who is Jpana to decide what is worthless or not – the Diaoyou’s are not your property – the Diaoyous are not the property of the US and the Diaoyou’s are not the property of Japan – but the Diaoyou’s are China’s property!! People who own property can use their own property as they like – ie they can leave it uninhabited and undeveloped or they can develop it to the hilt. Your argument is thus garbage at best and the argument of a thief a worst. Please give the board your address so that we can come and help ourselves to all the so-called “worthless” contents in your home!! Of course you would not do this. Of course the US has a major part to play in the Diaoyou as the US stole the Diaoyous from China and ognored the Potsdam Declaration because of their Cold War fears!! Did you not read the Wikipedia Cold War Polities list I posted earlier!! The US is the cunning lawyer/fox that reneged on the Potsdam Declaration and handed stolen prpoerty back to Japan!! Yes – the stealing of the Diaoyou Islands is an attempted legal scam by the US akin to a Ponzi scheme or some other such scam. You have obviously not been fortunatel enought to witness firsthand how hard the Chinese work – or how clever they are- and how incredible is their developemnt. If you had – you would be able to put up a credible argument on this thread. China is the 800 pound gorilla in Asia whether you like it or not – and this has always been the case throughout history as China civilised Asia – and it is China that will decide or play the major role in whether Asia blossoms or not – and not the US which is too far away – although the US does has a role as facilitator with its technology and human talent. US companies will benefit from Chinese infrastructure and development in Asia – as well as the markets China develops. However, the bottom line, is that aside from short term commercial interest, the US is too ignorant and green and young in its mental attitude, and too selfish to put in some genuine long term assets(money not arms) into the Asia Poker game or to genuinely look after Asia’s interests. Ultimately the US has to work with China in its relations with Asia – if it is too succeed. If the US has bad relations with China or behaves in a dodgy way – ala the Diaoyou – the Chinese will mistrust the US and shut the US out. Thankfully – that imbecile Hillary Clinton – who thought that the Asia Pivot was a military pivot – rather than a commercial and engagemnt pivot – has gone – and Kerry and Obama have an opportunity to get back to real business with Asia!! Obama should work with China to secure a peaceful and prosperous Asia – that will be a huge market for US products!! As a side issue – and talking of US legal scams – genuine Asian countries should avoid the latest one sided US scam – the tainted TPP!! The TPP needs to be ripped up and a credible trade treaty done with China and other Asian countries.

          • Whirled Peas

            Frankly, I think all these territorial disputes China has with various Asian countries is seriously getting in the way of unity and cooperation in Asia. Look at it from the point of view of its neighboring countries. When country A sees China trespassing its borders and its citizens saying nasty things about a past it has apologized for, it’s naturally going to get alarmed and want to beef up its security. And then when countries C, D, and E experience the same thing, they get uptight too and start talking about forming a security alliance. And then things go from bad to worse, China starts feeling like there’s a plan to contain it, which yes, it ends up becoming just that because China has made its neighbors very very nervous! Maybe China’s self-image is lagging the reality that it is a rising power. Doesn’t it see that it is no longer a victim. Doesn’t it see that it can in fact make others nervous? These territorial rows are getting in the way of Asian countries working together to ensure that they remain independent, flourishing sovereignties that do not have to kow tow (as you say) to the west.

          • chinditine

            WP – I agree with you on the Diaoyou issue getting in the way of of unity and cooperation in Asia. Its called “divide and rule” which is waht the US wants. The US does not want a strong Europe and does not want a strong Asia. Read wikileaks!!

            I think you miss the point of China. China was a victim of Colonialist powers – and strongly feels it to this day – hence the seeming victim mentality. The majority of China’s military buildup is to protect itself fro the US – President Clinton sending Aircraft carriers to protect Taiwan and the US deliberately bombing the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia. The Chinese have 1.3 billion people to protect – and so their defense spending is understandable – but its about a fifth of US military spending – and so makes sense.

            I think you have to take out the Diaoyou Islands from the rest of the Asian issues because the Islands are 100% China’s. The Phillipines, Vietnam, Malysia, Indonesia, all have to sit down with China and have a big POW WOW discussion over who owns what in the SE China sea. My feeling is that sensible discussions will prevail – and that trying to use the US to bully China won’t work as the Phillipines is doing. The Phillipines are going to get zilch until they sit down and negotiate with the Chinese. If they try and threaten China – they will bring trouble on themselves.

            China is primarily focussed on growing its economy and countries should remember that and maximise trade with China. Australia – South Korea – and Japan up until the Diaoyou issue – were all doing brilliantly with China because of trade. China can be overwhelming because of its size and commercial ability – but countries can succesfull trade with China and get Chinese investment in their countries. Germany has been doing brilliantly with China – and is an example for Japan. China is alledgedly about to promte a new foreign minister who is very pro Japan – so it is an interesting time.

            The US really needs to set up a security arrangement with China – so that it can unwind from its Asian military commitments. Part of this would be working ut a formula which does nort allow Japan to re-arm or become aggressive again – and China and South Korea should be part of the plan.

            Anyhow – thats the logical solution. The reality is that you have corruption and the US Military Industrial Complex involved who are desperate to avoid catastrophic economic losses as the US downsizes its military. Thus China are called a threat – and which explained Hillary Clinton’s deliberately aggresive China policy – which was out of keeping with what the region actually needed to prosper. This is why teh US has such a bad name around the world – because it destabilzes other regions – so that the US prospers on the misery of others . Also, you have the US using its military might to spport the Petro Dollar – which is part of the equation – and which allows the US to live like kings at the expense of the rest of the world.

          • Guest

            I could not be imaging how Philippines could threaten CN, I am sure nobody on earth would ever think that either, of course except those brainwashed Chinese. How that such of non sense could be believed?

            All of your writing is exactly nothing else other than threatening the small and weak countries.

            You wrote “… and Japan up until the Diaoyou issue..” let’s say you are right about Senkaku and JP was causing the conflicting. But how would you explain CN position in South China Sea? I guess you would say the issue was due Phil, VN, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Taiwan, right? Don’t you see where the common point of all problem is?

            CN must be aware that, in a modern world: threatening, intimidating, aggression are not going to lead CN to anywhere. Right now, most of CN neighbors are thinking about alliances to against CN rather than “co-operate” or giving their territories away. It is about time for CN to reconsider its strategy before too late.

          • chinditone

            Well Mr Guest – the Phillipines has been making more noise than a squealing pig – in its dispute with China – rather than talking to China. China has signalled that it will reject the UN arbitration – and so it will be interesting to see what the Phillipines gain from it all. China has banks of legal scholars and study departments – so its unlikely that they would lose the arbitration if they attended – but they have decided not to. My view is that the current Phillipine policy is just going to make it tougher for the Phillipines to get anything – as the Chinese will prevent it. I could be wrong – we will all have to wait and see what happens!! The Philippines need to be careful that its not greed that is pushing this – http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/philex-plans-more-gas-drilling-083628117.html

          • Guest

            What would Phil gain? It will be more than what you can imagine. Once she won the court case the world would start to criticise CN for not following the international laws, the imagination 9 dotted lines would be waived and CN would not be able to use her power or war to force Phil to give up her territories….and more.

          • Guest

            You are convinced nobody with your logic. There is no chance for CN to win that why she decided to reject the court. Let’s say if you know for sure that your height is 5’8 but someone says you are only 5′ and challenge you a winnie of $10 – $1000. Will you accept the challenge? If you don’t then you must be an idiot and no point to argue with an idiot.

          • Truth

            The Senkaku Islands are Japanese. They have historical proof of their legal acquisition by international law of that time.

            The LDP is a centrist party. Who is more interest in Abe’s family tree is Nobusuke Kishi who the Americans released to set up the JDP due to his and their anti-communist China stance.

            Japan has apologised many times including in person to each and every comfort woman and compensated nations many times more than other nations.

            Will be Chinese be apologizing and compensating the Tibetans, and in particularly the Tibetan nuns it raped, murder and mutilated, the millions Mao starved to death and murdered any time soon?

            Japan has compensated the WWII victims. In many cases the compensation was stolen by those nations’ government and not distributed to the people and so if the people are pissed, they should take it up with their own dictatorial governments.

            The Yasukuni is not a “war shrines for war criminals”. It is far more than that. The issue of who is and what is exactly a “war criminal” is scope for another debate but most people accept it was a showcase political trial … one nation’s freedom fighter is another nation’s terrorist.

            You’re an idiot who is doing more to destroy any sympathy and support China might gain and if you love China, you’d be better off putting an end to your idiocy and silencing your bigotry.

            If China has a problem over the Senkaku Islands now oil and gas reserves have been found there, take it to the International Court. That is the way the world resolves such problems now.

          • Truth

            For those who do not know, China has something like 20 territorial dispute over lands it claims it once owned going back as far as C 17th.

            The territories include regions of Burma, Laos, Northern India, Vietnam, Nepal, Bhutan, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Korea, 300 islands in the South, East and Yellow Seas, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Taiwan, South Kazakhstan, the Afghan province of Bahdashan, Transbaikalia and Okhotsk to name a few.

            The areas combined exceed the current territory of modern China.

            It behaves like a big, fat, spoilt, retarded ‘single child policy’ baby boy demanding the world around it on the basis of some Jet Li movie it once saw, considering itself to be the center of the world and throwing its toys around if it does not get what it wants.

            For the Communist Party of China (CPC), Japan exists as a convenient ‘enemy without’ to distracting attention from the problems and ‘enemies within’ China, the greatest enemy to democracy being the CPC itself. A violently suppressive, undemocratic and corrupt single party political entity who has tendrils reaching out into almost every nation in the world.

            Life in Japan appears like a heaven in comparison to life in China.

          • Tom

            You are making conflict yourself. Japan got most of the Asia in WWII and you are telling us JP can claim their land too. You are sounding like idot with self-centre and know nothing. It is shame you to have the name truth. Actually you should change your name to untruth.

          • Truth

            Yes, Japan did do a good job of kicking the White Imperialists out of Asia until the Americans froze its assets. It not only lead to many Asian nations fighting for and gaining their independence afterwards, its army trained and fought for some of them too.

            Without Japan China would still be addicted to opium and under the rule of Europeans.

          • Tom

            Without the 2 atomic bombs, Japan will not wake up from WWII. Now without China, JP trading will be negative.

          • Truth

            The only thing China is trading are the human rights, civil liberties and lives of its citizens for foreign currency to line the CPC party members’ pockets.

            In fact, China should be grateful for Japan because without Japan fighting Jiang Jieshi and weakening the Kuomintang, Mao would have never been able to take over and, erm, “liberate” the people.

            Although it has to be said that Jiang Jieshi did not kill nearly as many of his own citizens, it’s difficult to know who was the worst enemy of the Chinese people.

            What was Mao’s final death toll … 20, 40 or 70 million (and still counting is you happen to be the wrong racial minority)?

            When is China going to join the modern world, become a proper democracy and give its people real human rights?

          • Tom

            It is shame to you to have this imperial Japanese army thought. Millions were killed by JP and it is the fact and now you are giving the wrong figures on Mao to misleading us. One problem you need to face: be true and honest.

          • gg5588282gi

            hope you get your ugly face slashed to bits

          • Whirled Peas

            No one is saying Japan can claim the land of other countries in Asia. All the land the Japan obtained in WWII and in the first Sino-Japanese war was renounced by Japan at the end of WWII. All of it! In the case of the Senkakus, Japan is only protecting it’s own territory. I’m sorry to say, this time it’ is China trying it’s hand at hegemonic maneuvers while screaming about Japan’s past actions for which it has apologized numerous times.

          • Tom

            You are wrong. The islands are not belongs to Japan and it is time to return to China. That is why JP is so afraid to due with China and asking help from US. The whole issue is JP fault purchasing the islands and the solution is to return to square one: stop purchasing the islands.

          • Truth

            The “whole issue” are the gas resources and it only kicked off once they were discovered.

            Up until that time, all the official maps in China had them marked as Japanese … which is why China is “disappearing” 10,000s of map relating to its numerous border disputes, re-writing history and inflaming racism as we write.

          • Tom

            You are still lying. Japan is illegal stealing the islands and it is time to return to China. Japan is so eagar to mark this islands as their own because they do not have resources and try to steal from China. It is unacceptable and that is why China has right to get it back. If Japan thinks the islands belongs to JP. they can capture the China marine vessels, however, JP knows it is illegal to do this.

          • Truth

            Then why did all the maps the CPC printed in the late 1950s and 1960 have then shown as being part of the Okinawas and Japanese territory?

            All the evidence is here.

            http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/senkaku/qa_1010.html

            I am sorry saying something is true does not make it true. The Communistic Party only has total censorial control within its borders.

            The outside world relies on existing evidence and international law.

            Unless China starts to recognize international law and legal processes it will increasingly become a pariah state both for its internal policies, foreign policies and the amount of pollution it causes.

            In your case, information pollution.

          • Tom

            Your stand is groundless on the map as China also got support from the maps with the islands. Don’t you know JP map also shown the islands belongs to China. China has the right to claim the islands illegally or otherwise, Jp will capture the China vessels if JP thought China enters its terrritory. But in fact, JP knows China has its right to enter the islands. The real bad is JP unwilling to talk with China and still claim on its own. JP needs to recongnize his evil deeds in WWII otherwise the neghbours China, Korea, Taiwan and Russia will gather to against JP.

          • Truth

            Which map and what date?

            The Senkaku Islands have legal owners. If someone disputes that, take it to the International Court. That’s the way we do things in the civilized world.

            This isn’t another Tibet we are talking about.

          • Tom

            You are wrong. That owner is not recongized by China or international court. Even US still not saying the islands belongs to JP. JP is using buying or selling China property is illegal. If JP got the right on the islands, try to capture China vessels, however, JP knows they have no authority to do this.

          • Truth

            Which map and what date?

            The Senkaku Islands have legal owners. There ownership was established legally according to the laws at that time. If another nation disputes that, take it to the International Court. That’s the way nations do things in the civilized world.

            This isn’t another Tibet we are talking about.

          • Tom

            As China is not recognized the ownership of Japan, that is why China can enter the terrritory freely as he got the legal and history support and even US says noting on this. If Japan insisted belongs to them, he should go to internaitonal court for justice but not for China to do it. It is same to comfrot woman in WWII that Japan still deny on this. Even worse now is Japan going to extreme right direction which is very dangerous to the region.

          • Whirled Peas

            Japan is not the party disputing ownership of the islands, China is. It is China that should go to the ICJ and file an application! And you know, you sound like a raving maniac conflating the island issue with the comfort women and your theories about Japan moving to the right. Next, are you going to tell us what you ate for breakfast? It’s as if you’ve been handed a checkoff list of propaganda items you must mention on this forum — kind of like a paid telemarketer handed a list of “talking points” to cover before the homeowner hangs up in disgust.

          • chinditone

            What amuses me about you whirling peaman – is that despite being given the facts that it is Japan who is refusing to go to the ICJ or who is even deleverately refusing to acknowledge that there is a sovereignty problem – you still ignore the facts and post nonsense. Read very carefully:http://opiniojuris.org/2012/10/03/japanese-pm-confirms-no-icj-for-senkakusdiaoyu-dispute-with-china/

          • Whirled Peas

            Chinditone: The article you reference http://opiniojuris.org/2012/10… says the following:

            “Japanese PM Confirms: No ICJ for Senkakus/Diaoyu Dispute with China
            by Julian Ku
            The Japanese Prime Minister made clear in remarks yesterday
            that he has NO INTENTION OF PROPOSING international arbitration to
            settle or mediate the ongoing Senkaku/Diaoyu Island dispute with China.
            Indeed, CHINA’s government-controlled English language paper, noted the
            inconsistency of Japan’s position given its willingness to send its
            similar dispute with South Korea to the ICJ.”

            Okay, listen carefully. There is no reason for Japan to PROPOSE arbitration since it is not the one disputing the ownership of the Senkakus. The Dokdo situation is DIFFERENT because Korea has current administrative control over Dokdo and Japan is disputing that control and so has applied to the ICJ. Japan is not being inconsistent in not PROPOSING ICJ arbitration.

            Since Japan has the islands and China is contesting, it is China that should file an application with the ICJ and see what Japan does. If Japan refuses to go to arbitration, it will have to explain why. WP

          • Whirled Peas

            *Correction: Japan is not being inconsistent in not PROPOSING ICJ arbitration [over the Senkakus]

          • chinditone

            Oh Whirled Peas – I hope your paymaster learn to pay more money for your website posting role – because they seriously need to increase the brianpower of the poster. Japan won’t go to the ICJ because it knows it is illegally holding the Diaoyou’s. Japan is denying that there is a soverienty issue of the Diaoyou’s because it does not want to have to defend it!! You and your fellow posters have been unable to produce any historical facts to back up Jpanese ownership. Why? Because there are no historical facts or nolegitimate legal mandate that gives Jpan ownership of the Dioyou’s!! In a court of law – it will be the same scenario for Jpan – not legal proof that Jpan owns the Diaoyou islands – and Japan will become the laughing stock of the world. Japan is just a thief as regards teh Diaoyou’s and Japan knows this – and so 99% of what Japan says about the Daioyou are in fact lies. Lies are the currency of ABE. I hope oridnary Japanese people are not thieves and liars. Please now learn the truth and read the facts. Read under Sovereignty Dispute heading in wikipedia – it says this “Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands#cite_note-50

          • Whirled Peas

            Begging the question again are you. Japan won’t PROPOSE going to the ICJ because it isn’t the contestant. China is the contestant so it should go to the ICJ and file an application and see what happens. Japan might just agree to go to arbitration. Then Japan and China will have the opportunity to showcase all their arguments, maps, and other proof of ownership to their heart’s content.

          • chinditone

            Why did Japan say it has no intention of going to the ICJ over the Daioyou’s when it says it is going to the ICJ over the Dodko’s? It is obvious that it is a Japanese tactic to avoid facing the facts of its illegal occupoation of teh Daioyou and to try to hold on to them as long as they can.

            A rational response from someone confident of their legal case would be to say that Japan would be happy to go to the ICJ if China takes them there!! Saying that they have no intention of going to the ICJ proves that Jpan is trying to run away from something and begs the question why or what?

            Its kind of a smoking gun illustrating their guilt in the Daioyou theft!!

            http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-10/01/content_26687048.htm

          • Truth

            Japan did not say “it has no intention of going to the ICJ”. Noda said to the reporter it had “no intention of initiating proceedings” which is quite different.

            The Senkaku Islands have a legal owner and Japan is confident in the strength of its case.

            Stop misrepresenting it.

            China refuses to recognize the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ or accept international convention. It is more than closed minded, it has a negative attitude towards the ICJ and so the entirely foundation for your argument is bogus.

            … And stop wasting our time with references to the toilet paper the official Chinese government’s press agency, Xinhua, publishes.

            Does anyone honestly believe they are anything more than merely a propaganda wing for the CPC?

          • chinditone

            sTruth – how much is the Japanese govt or CIA paying you for your factless posts? Do they know you can’t give a good argument or post any valid facts?

            These are the true and valid facts!!

            The Diaoyous do not have a legal owners – because a) The islands are historically Chinese and teh Chinese have hsitorical proof of ownership and the Japanese 100% do not. b) Japanese War criminals stole teh islands in 1895. c) Japan failed to honour the Potsdam Declaration and return the stolen Diaoyou islands. c) Japan and teh US tried to use the phoney San Francsico Treat to steal the Daioyou islands and pretend that it was a legal deal. It was not a legal deal because China was not a signoratoree. (If I steal some old items from your home and get your neighbpours to sign a contract that your old items are now mine – does that legally make them mine? Of course not. Same logic with San Francisco Treaty). d) The US illegally gave the Diaoyou to Jpan to adminsiter in 1972. e) Noda and Japan tried deceptfully to buy the Diaoyou islands in 2012 as if Japan owned rather than administered them. f) Noda and Japan tried to hide their crimes by pretending that the sovereignty issue does not exist and they are deliberately not taking the issue to the ICJ.

            All the facts are here. The Japanese are unable to provide any historical proof!! Please refute the Chinese claims by providing vlaid counter arguments or valid Japanese historical facts.

            http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island

          • Truth

            Frankly, if it comes from a .cn domain (China), no one is going to believe it because China has not evolved enough to see the importance of objective facts over propaganda and to recognise human rights and the rule of law.

            This is proven by its fear and disrespect of the International Court of Justice and other internationally binding conventions and its persistent challenging of other sovereign state’s territories on the basis of some bizarre medieval logic and claims.

            In the case of the Senkaku Islands, China appears to base it claims on the grounds that some Empress sent someone to gather some seaweed from its shores 400 years ago …

            The only thing you can do then is to take that argument to the International Court of Justice and see if it works.

            Bitching on the internet won’t achieve anything but make Chinese people look silly, and sending in gun boats will only make them look unstable and aggressive.

            Is that what you want … to make China look silly, unstable and aggressive?

            Anyway, what is this really all about? The gas reserves or as a cover up to some internal political problems in China that China does not want the world to see?

            Which ethnic minority is the Community Party killing off right now, or which academic are they persecuting for speaking out?

            What’s the cover up all about?

          • Guest

            You see with a simple argue between netizens has already proven no one would listen to each other: you think you are right and other guy thinks he is right. How can a complicate issue can be resolved between the two countries? The best solution is let an independent third party to judge which is how we all do in any debate. CN can only force the little and weak country like Tibet, Myanmar…to unconditional accept CN demands but it is impossible for CN to do that to JP, VN, Phil, Indonesia, Korea, Russia. To resolve the dispute if CN believes it is in dispute CN must actively file a case with ICJ. Don’t you see or understand?

          • chinditone

            Mr Guest – I see and understand that you are a Filipino – and are desperate for the Phillipines to win their own dispute with China. I do not see you posting anything worthwile on this forum as the Phillpines case has nothing to do with the Daioyou’s – it is between Japa and China!! Go post on a Phillipines/China forum!!

            You have not read all the limks and threads – as the facts state China owns the Diaoyou’s. The interesting thing is why China does not go to the ICJ but asks Jpan to negotiate and why it is using the Diaoyous to humiliate Jpan and the US. That is teh interesting question!!

          • Guest

            I am no Phil but Chinese, no need for me to hide my identity. I have been living in a Western society for a while, I am no longer acting like a brainwashed Chinese. I can search, read all info and judge by my own. Are you in the same my position or you are behind the firewall and get pay 50 cents for every post? Truth was saying you are a Jew but I doubt that, you are Chinese as same as I am, the difference is I am telling you I am Chinese while you are hiding yours (if Truth is right) to make yourself as an independent or neither pro CN nor pro JP. This is a very dirty trick. If you didn’t say that you are Jew then I must make an apology.
            I am bring the Phil up to ensure you see the logic which country should actively file. You chose to ignore other people opinions and contnibue asking the same questions. This is the problem with CN, she loves to demand rather than cooperate or follow the international laws.
            I was very proud to be Chinese even during the time CN was living in povery but now I feel shame when someone was asking: are you Chinese?

          • Truth

            “Negotiation” to Mainland China means sending in gun boats and harass with a militia of illegal fishermen.

            Yes, Chindit One wrote he “had Jewish ancestry”.

            (I doubt it too and don’t blame the Chinese for his immature conduct).

          • chinditone

            sTruth – I hope not all Japanese are dyed in the wool liars like you – and are capable of understanding and valuing the truth – and are not racist Nationalists like you. I hope that the Japanese are capable of apologising when they are wrong and returning stolen property to its owners. Heres to hope…..

          • Truth

            If the Senkaku Islands are “stolen” then China has to report it to “the police”. “The police” in this case, is the International Court of Justice.

            Taking the law into one’s own hands in this case, would called starting a war.

            There is a say, “possession is 9/10th of the law”.

          • Truth

            Understanding and accepting the law does not make one a racist. The Senkakus were lawfully acquired. The place to resolve a legal dispute is in the court, not the battle field.

            Repeating illogical and inaccurate statements 1,000 times and screaming out insults at another party does makes them to be true. It might work within China but in the international community, it makes you look bad.

            Neither the Cairo Declaration nor the Potsdam Proclamation bear legally binding power to transfer sovereignty therefore one is forced to keep peeling back the onion layers until ones comes to a clear and valid claim which is the acquisition of the terra nullius in 1895 by Japan.

            If China thinks it has a better claim, take it to the court.

          • chinditone

            OK – mr Guest – you took your Western money and ditched your identity and China – and are now a fake Chinese. Its covered well in the bible Ecclesiastes 7: 7 “Extortion turns a wise person into a fool, and a bribe corrupts the heart.” Whoever I am, the historical facts on the Diaoyou are on the Chinese side – take a read: http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island. The US failed to honour the Potsdam Declaration and return the Diaoyou to the Chinese after WW2 – and so the Japanese tried to steal them back – but have been busted by the Chinese. The Chinese have every legal and moral right to get their property back. Its a pity you don’t feel part of a great nation and culture anymore. A person without a culture is like a rolling stone and belongs now-where. You should rediscover your roots and find out who you are. Japan and China can sort out the Diaoyou’s. The US will simply go on increasing its trade with China – and China will continue to grow and grow. I am sure that they will be very close in future – and will probably control the commercial world between them. Of course the Jews+talented Chinese will provide teh money and brainpower to enable it to happen.

          • chinditone

            WP – why is Japan refusing to go to the ICJ – if no one is proposing it? Does that not smell fishy and does that not show guilt. Japan knows it has not historical or legal proof that it owns the Daioyou’s. The US should have implemented the Potsdam Decalartion but decided to steal te islands to spite China and tried to use the Treaty of Sanfranciso(of which China was not a signoratoree) to cover up their theft. If Japan goes to the ICJ – all this will come out and humilaite the US. Furthermore, has said this publically so that it can avoid going to court “Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan” Read Sovereignty Dispute in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

          • Truth

            Japan isn’t refusing to face the ICJ. It is refusing to start proceedings because it sees no conflict. That is quite a different matter.

            You are falsely representing the matter and falsely quoting Noda.

          • chinditone

            Then why is Noda and Japan bringing proceeding against the South Koreas for Dodko – whilst refusing to do so for the Daioyou? Is that not highly suspiciosu and proves that Japan has no legal basis to hold the Diaoyou and is deliberately running away from and avoiding the ICJ. China and the world knows that Jpan is tryng to avoid facing the truth and facing the facts on teh Diaoyou’s because they stiole the islands with teh help of the US!!

            http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-10/01/content_26687048.htm

          • Whirled Peas

            What is highly suspicious is your apparent inability to grasp a simple procedural concept that the party contesting another’s territorial control is the party that should apply to the ICJ for resolution of the conflict. Did China ever propose to Japan that they go to the ICJ together, and if so when and where?

          • chinditone

            WP – stop inventing lies about procedure as it has nothing to do with the facts and what Noda has said.

            If you are correct – then why did Japan simply not say that they would be happy to go to the ICJ if China takes them there – rather than say that they have no intention of going to the ICJ – which indicates that they are avoiding it? The question is why is Japan avoiding the ICJ over the Daioyou? Why is Japan running away from the ICJ even before China proposes to take them there? Is this not odd – is this not suspicious?

            It is obviously highly irregukar and highly suspicious and is an indication of Japan’s guilt. Japan is happy to go to the ICJ over Dodko but not the Diayou?

            Its all here:http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-10/01/content_26687048.htm

            Additionaly – why is Japan denying that there is a problem over the Daioyou – when there obviously is? “Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan” Why does Japan deny that there is a problem – rather than prove it at the ICJ – which would shut China up and win international support for Japan? The answer is because Jpan know it has 100% stolen the Daioyou islands!!

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

          • Truth

            Japan knows what China is like better than the rest of the world and we knows what Chinese propagandists are like.

            Japan followed the book, legally and peacefully, as far as the acquisition of the Senkaku Islands in 1895 and they now have a legal owner. If China objects, it has to start proceedings at ICJ. It won’t.

            I am sorry but your level of rhetoric (because it’s not discussion nor even debate) just does not wash outside of the PRC.

            We have freedom of information, a free press, our internet is not censored and our governments have evolved beyond the level of social control China and North Korea indulge in.

            I asked specific details regarding which maps published when, and I ask you step outside of your role for a moment and just discuss why you are doing this as a human being.

            What motivates you on a personal level?

          • chinditone

            sTruth – remember I asked you to produce facts and a valid argument if you wanted to stop getting embarrassed. You have still not produced any evidence that Japan ever owned the Diaoyou – and you have not answered why Japan is refusing to take the Diaoyou case to the ICJ and denying that there is an ownership issue – and yiu are now trying to change the subject and adding insults. If you cannot say anything valid or intelligent – you should not have a Truth ID – and you should not be posting here. I’m still waiting for some facts and intelligence from you!!! Luckily I’m not holding my breath

          • Truth

            How many times do you need to see it written …

            Japan is not refusing to take the case of the ICJ.

            It is China which is refusing to take the case of the ICJ.

            Japan does not need to take the case to the ICJ because it has legal ownership of the Senkaku Islands.

            China will keep refusing to take the case of the ICJ because if it takes Japan to the ICJ, all the other territorial disputes it has (20 approx) will want to go to the ICJ. Nor does it even recognize the ICJ, it is almost as bad as North Korea in that aspect.

            Only in China would see gathering sea lavender count as evidence of legal possession.

            Does China want to gather more sea lavender … or is this really all about the gas reserves?

            For a copy of the ICJ report on China’s systematic violation of fundamental human rights, its systematic disregard for the international Seventeen Point Agreement it signed and the genocide it carried out, see here:

            http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/govngo/govngo1.html

          • fe5259299

            would happily put a nice .50 CAL round through your forehead, and splatter your brains everywhere

          • chinditone

            sTruth – stop writing nonsence. I produced links and facts that Noda is refusing to acknowledge a sovereignty issue or take China to the ICJ – but you have produced nothing. Not only have you produced nothing – but you start introducing other subjects and rubbish on this Diaoyou thread!! If you are genuinely interested in Tibet and want the truth and to see how the Chinese liberated the Tibetans from serfdom- and how the Chinese have an 800+ year relationship with China – how the CIA funds Tibetan resistance – read this!! http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

          • Truth

            Whirled Peas has provided a link below to what was actually said about the Senkaku dispute.

            Mao’s communist dream is turning into a form of fascism which has not only enslaved his own people and crushed ethnical minorities in China but is threatening the stability of NE Asia region politically and environmentally.

            The latter being a far better non-political, non-racial reason to contain China within its own increasingly toxic, denuded borders and empty waters.

            It wants Japan’s Senkaku Islands to rape them of their marine reserves and remove the gas and oil reserves. It has nothing to do with history.

            Did you note how the Michael Parenti article you linked to ends,

            “If Tibet’s future is to be positioned somewhere within China’s emerging free-market paradise, then this does not bode well for the Tibetans … If China is the great success story of speedy free market development … then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was.”

            Please, go ahead and keep shooting yourself in the foot.

            Most Chinese live close to the poverty level or well under it … Regional bureaucrats milk the country dry, extorting graft from the populace and looting local treasuries. Land grabbing in cities and countryside by avaricious developers and corrupt officials at the expense of the populace are almost everyday occurrences. Tens of thousands of grassroot protests and disturbances have erupted across the country, usually to be met with unforgiving police force. Corruption is so prevalent, reaching into so many places, that even the normally complacent national leadership was forced to take notice ….

            Workers in China who try to organize labor unions in the corporate dominated “business zones” risk losing their jobs or getting beaten and imprisoned.

            Millions of business zone workers toil twelve-hour days at subsistence wages.

            Affordable medical treatment is no longer available for millions. Men have tramped into the cities in search of work, leaving an increasingly impoverished countryside populated by women, children, and the elderly.

            The suicide rate has increased dramatically, especially among women

            China’s natural environment is sadly polluted. Most of its fabled rivers and many lakes are dead, producing massive fish die-offs from the billions of tons of industrial emissions and untreated human waste dumped into them.

            Toxic effluents, including pesticides and herbicides, seep into ground water or directly into irrigation canals.

            Cancer rates in villages situated along waterways have skyrocketed a thousand-fold.

            Hundreds of millions of urban residents breathe air rated as dangerously unhealthy, contaminated by industrial growth and the recent addition of millions of automobiles. An estimated 400,000 die prematurely every year from air pollution. Government environmental agencies have no enforcement power to stop polluters, and generally the government ignores or denies such problems, concentrating instead on industrial growth.

            China? No thank you.

          • chinditone

            sTruth stop repeating what other people have said – I’ve addressed WP and his ICJ comments. The Japanese – NODA – are deliberately saying that there is no sovereignty issue to avoid the ICJ. They know that their case is weak. The interesting question is why does China not go to the ICJ? Obviously China thinks it has a better policy – humiliating Japan and exposing the weak Japan/US security relationship. Tibet is infinitely better off than pre-China rule. All the trouble is Tibet coming from the CIA funded Dalai Lama and his buddies who are now encouraging the Tibetans to self immolate and blaming it on China. A real religious leader – rather than a fake one – would ask them to stop!! Who is funding and pushing the Dalai Llama – the US of sourse!! In other words – all the misery in Tibet is caused by the US!! Of course – Japan is just teh US’s dog – as Jpan is not a free nation like China – and it too copies what the US says!!

          • Truth

            No one believes Chinese propaganda. It’s too transparently false. Too cheap and unsubtle.

            It’s not just the Tibetans who face cultural genocide but also ethnicities like the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Why? Same again … energy and mineral reserves and the enslavement of local people’s to serve the Han elite.

            Does Beijing respect the Uyghurs ownership of land they have lived in for 10,000s of years? All one has to do is examine China’s persistent legal, human rights and environmental violations.

            The Dalai Lama is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy, not the CIA. The CIA had a brief flirtation with funding Tibetans resistance almost 60 years ago and gave it and the Dalai Lama has never encouraged Tibetans to self immolate.

          • Whirled Peas

            Hello Truth,
            Your mention of Tibetans and Uighurs reminds me that if China is going to try to use old maps from 17th century China to counter Japan’s 19th century legal claim and 114 years of effective control of the Senkakus from 1895 to the present (interrupted by the occupation), then the Uighurs and Tibetans and other ethnic groups might start saying “We demand all the borders of China be pushed back to the 1600′s when SEE, we were not part of the map of China.” Not saying this will be a good or bad thing, but it would be consistent with the line of argument China is posing, and would give a bizarre twist to this saga. IMO, China’s revanchist approach to territory opens the way to a never-ending process of recriminations and border wars within China, as sub-groups claim “We lost X land to the Chinese in Y battle back in the 1600′s and had we been more prepared, and not too busy, and if our leaders hadn’t been corrupt, we would have won the battle and we would not be part of the China map today. We want our ancient land back.” Messy.

          • chinditone

            WP – when you are losing an argument – its a well known trick try and change the subject. Its an old US trick to try and divide and rule and deliberately cause trouble for China. It is obvious that its US policy to try and drown China in futile border wars because its losing on the economic front. Funnilly enough – it explains why Jpan does not take China to the ICJ – and end the disputes – because the US – Japan’s masters – would not like it. Ironically China has a history with teh Arab world over 1000 years – and gets on with them all – rather than waging wars on them like the US!!

          • Whirled Peas

            I’m not talking to you. And I’m not changing the subject. You are not the only one on this forum, and there are many different topics to talk about. We’ve exhausted the subject of what Noda said and did not say. It is clear China does not want to go to the ICJ for whatever reason and is looking for excuses to not go by pretending that Japan is the one that refuses to go to the ICJ. China should just stop the duplicity. At times I have enjoyed exchanging views with you, but you really tend not to consider other people’s views and just repeat the same points over and over like a raging automaton, and then go off on tangents, and throw in a few snide comments for good measure. I can see that you are intelligent, but you are getting nastier, more sarcastic, and zealot-like in your China-can-do-no-wrong dogmatism. You do not discuss, you preach. Time for you to talk to someone else. This will be our last exchange. Over and Out. WP

          • chinditone

            WP – I don’t mean to be rude – but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that this is a public forum – ie you can’t have a private chat – because others can see what you write and they will contribute if interested!! Nothing necessarily malicious in this. Additionally, I was not having a go at you personally but at the US its Foreign policy – as everyone is fed up with the US stirring up border disputes and playing divide and rule. Why can’t the US for once get it into their hard heads that if you sucker someone once – it won’t work a second time – thus its best not to sucker someone. I wonder how the Japanese are feeling after the Richard Nixon papers were de-classified that showed him exchanging the Diaoyou for stopping cotton exports. Now getting back to the subject – Xinjiang. Xinjiang has an ancient and very interesting history – and has been off and on – part of China since ancient times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang . It is also the ancient Chinese route to the Arab world. Sorry that you are a bit tetchy today – you’ve contributed some great dialogue and links to this thread – even if we don’t always agree. I think that as a result of our dialogue we got quiet far in the Japan discussion – and we just need some new historical or recent information – to shed more light on the matter. Peace to you.

          • Tom

            You are now taliking out of the subject. Go back to square one. It is starting with Japan illegal purchasing the islands and those islands belongs to China with concrete evidence from The Postdam Declaration which agreed by both China and Japan. But the San Francisco Treaty is nothing do with China as they did not agree in this. In conclusion, Japan needs to return the islands to China.

          • Truth

            Sure, and it’s an old Chinese Communist Party just to detain dissidents and intellectuals for years without trial and subject them to torture and work camp re-education.

            Japan has no need to take Shina to the ICJ as it legally owns the Senkaku Islands. If Shina has a problem with that, it must initiate proceedings and then put Japan in a position to respond.

            That is the way the world works. I am so amazed by your capacity to write the exact opposite to the truth, e.g. blaming the US for China’s 20 territorial disputes, that I am starting to think that you are not a pro-Chinese troll but a comedian making fun of Chinese propagandists.

            The US is on record hoping the matter is resolved legally and peaceful. Shina might survive the first wave of a full on attack by the combined US and Japanese forces but it would never survive the international community withdrawing their investments and business. The party would be fine but the people would die in their millions. The question is, could the party survive the internal reaction to that? Probably not.

            This isn’t the 1950s when Mao killed 30 to 70 million of his own people and Chen Yi even refused an offer of 100,000 tonnes of wheat from Japan whilst children and old people starved to death.

          • chinditone

            Struth – please respect history and get your historical facts right. The Great famine happened in 1960/1961 in China – and your numbers are exaggerated. The famine happened because China was using rice and grain to repay the Russians for their factories!! Mao was confronted and backed down – and Deng employed capitalistic incentives to remedy the famine within 6 months. Please desist from your racist attitude towards the Chinese!! Hate the error not the person!! Likewise – hate the Japanese errors and not the Japanese!!

          • chinditone

            sTruth – you are the propagandist who can’t post facts or give valid arguments!! Your paymasters the CIA/Japanese are wasting their money on you – as don’t have the ability to read and understand facts.

            Michale Parenti is a well known US scholar and the CIA paying teh Dalai Lama is doumented!! The CIA have many fronts – and I’m sure they have found a clean channel to pay the traitor once they werre busted, Please read carefully: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

            The Dalai Lama is basically a traitor to Tibet and China – the religious Judas who took 30 pieces of silver to betray China and betray Tibet. The Dalai Lama and his gang loves Tibet and the Tibetans so much that he is busy trying to get them to self immolate – so that they can say China is repressive. If you read the Michale Parenti Tibet Myth article – you will see that the Dalai Lama and his clique lives like feaudal kings whilst ordinary Tibettans lived as feudal slaves and is the very worst poverty. China changed all this – and Tibetans now live wealthy and decent lives – and have the opportunity for a decent education in Tibet or China. their lives are 1000 fold better than when they lived under the cruel tyrrany of the Dalia Lama and his gang.

            To me – a responsible and genuine religious leader would love his people. If the Dalai Lama is a responsible and loving leader – he would ask the Tibetans not to self immolate – and he would issue an order that anyone who does so – will be kicked out of Tibetan Bhuddism. This is a no brainer. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the world’s serious religions do not encourage their followers to suicide!! You do read of mass suicides – but it is always the case of brianwashed people following a madman. The fact that the Dalai Lama does not ask his followers not to self immolate proves that he is a religious fake

          • Guest

            You are attempting to argue just to win regard fact therefore you have put up a lots of non sense argument points. Senkaku is currently JP, of course JP has no dispute with her ownership, only CN that disputes. Why should JP acknowledge Senkaku is in dispute if it is not as far as JP concerned? LOL
            If you still don’t get it, think it this way: Paracels was invaded by CN in 1974 from VN after a short battle just before the South VN collapsed, CN is now controlling the whole island. VN is disputing the ownership of CN over the island because CN was using force to steal it from her, but CN is saying “No such of dispute, the island is CN”. Now, it is up to VN to take CN to ICJ or continue sending her fishing boat or marine surveillance to site, as CN does in Senkaku, to prove the island is hers. VN can’t ask or wait for CN to file a case with ICJ. If you still don’t get it, I would suggest that you must not participating in any discussion or debate because clearly you have some issue.

          • chinditone

            Mr Guest – please learn how to argue and debate. You cannot just write that someone’s points are nonsense or weak – you have to explain and prove why they are weak or nonsense. If you are right and correct – we will accept your points. China has proved it owns the Diaoyou and that it should be China’s. It is now humiliating Japan and the US by exposing them as nothing more than hyocritical thieves. I guess when China is finiished with its purposes in doing so – it will either have teh Daioyou’s under control or it may resort to the ICJ. Its China’s choice.

            Were the Paracells always historicaly Vietnamese? I think not – as they were historically Chinese. Take a look at Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracel_Islands

          • Guest

            ” I guess when China is finiished with its purposes in doing so – it will
            either have teh Daioyou’s under control or it may resort to the ICJ” by the way you wrote, I interpreted that at least you had admitted or agreed that: CN can’t win the international court with the evidence that she has. And this is what we are trying to tell you “she can’t win by using the historical evident that she has as those are weak if not meaningless”, thing may change until she has the administrative role or whatever.

            I was not saying which countries is the real owner of Paracels because it has nothing to do with JP. I used it as an example to prove that the owner of the island will never dispute her ownership. That example to argue with your points: why JP is not acknowledge the island is in dispute or not file an application with ICJ. If you reread all the replies of WP, FE or Truth you should have seen that they have explained the reasons but you preferred to put up the same question.

            My apology if I have ever hurt your feeling.

          • chinditone

            Guest – please get “court” out of that brain of yours – as you are a one idea person. I have busted Japan for not taking the Diaoyou to the ICJ and keeping quiet on the sovereignty issue and avoiding the ICJ. Of course you are never going to expect a thief to turn up at a police station with its stolen goods or at a court – which explains Japan’s actions. Japan claims to abide by the rule of law – but is frightened to challenge China to take it to the ICJ on the Diaoyou’s. This is the issue. However, the point is that China is free to deal with teh Diaoyou’s as it sees fit – just as teh Phillipine’s is free to deal with its relationship with China as it sees fit. Just because you are fixated on the Phinippines and teh UN arbitration it does not mean that China has to take Jpan to the ICJ if it does not want to. You must not be lazy or ignorant and please carefully read and try to understood all the posts – because if you had understood all the post – you would have read that Richard Nixon traded the Diaoyou’s with Jpan in return for Japan reducing textile exports to the US. The US effectively cheated Japan!! Why do you think China is accusing the US of behaving badly over the Diaoyou’s? Do you not think that the Chinese are trying to humiliate the USA because they have caught the US is the act of stealing!! The US wants China to follow the rule of law and yet the US broke the rule of Law by stealing the Diaoyou and handing them over to China to try and save the US cotton industry in 1972!! http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656 . You have not hurt my feelings – I don’t know you – I am just a little sorry for you that you find understanding or providing proof so hard. I don’t know your English ability and do not know your educational level.

          • Whirled Peas

            What Noda really said October 2012.

            http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/noda/statement/201210/01kaiken_e.html

            When doing unbiased research, it is important to use primary sources rather than rely on secondary sources like China wiki and china(dot)org that may misquote and misinterpret. Here for your convenience are relevant excerpts:

            REPORTER: I am Hasegawa of AFP…. If China proposes to jointly institute proceedings before the ICJ, would the Japanese Government agree to take the matter to the court? There is the view that if Japan does not agree, and yet maintains that there is no territorial issue, Japan cannot escape criticism for having taken the same kind of stance that the ROK Government has maintained towards the Takeshima issue. How do you view this?

            PRIME MINISTER NODA: During my recent address to the General
            Assembly of the United Nations in New York, ….I … emphasized that when a dispute arises, it is desirable to peacefully resolve the dispute with reason, by utilizing international judicial institutions and that Japan abides by these
            principles and views them as most important. This is fundamental.

            . . . the Senkaku Islands are clearly an inherent territory of Japan, in light of historical facts and based upon international law and in fact the Senkaku Islands are under the valid control of Japan. Therefore, the Japanese Government’s position is that there exists no issue of territorial sovereignty.
            ….Therefore, as there exists no issue of territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands, Japan will NOT INSTITUTE PROCEEDINGS before the ICJ as we have attempted with Takeshima.

            So far, China has also not attempted to institute proceedings before the ICJ, nor has there been any sign of movement toward that end. Therefore, I believe that there is no current prospect of having proceedings before the ICJ as you suggested.

            REPORTER: What if China does take the matter to the ICJ?
            PRIME MINISTER NODA: I have nothing to say on that, as there has been no sign that this will happen.

            [In other words, since Japan has effective control it has no reason to institute proceedings. This is a different situation from Dokdo, where Korea has control and Japan contests Korea's control. But the fact Japan won't initiate does not mean it won't participate if China institutes proceedings. (See first paragraph supporting use of international justice systems). The reality is China has shown no indication of wishing to submit to ICJ arbitration so Noda sees no point on engaging in idle speculation over a hypothetical "what if." .] Personally, I think China should apply to ICJ and see what happens!

          • chinditone

            WP – at least you are proving a little bit more intelligence to the thread – albeit – you have kindly shot down your own argument – that the Japanese are not denying that there is an ownership issues over teh Diaoyou’s and are deliberately avoiding the ICJ and have nothing to hide!!

            The Diaoyou are 100% clearly not part of Japan as they were stolen in 1895 – and with the US’s help – Japan failed to honour the Potsdam Declaration and return the islands – and tried to cover up the theft with the phoney San Francisco Treaty – which China did not sign. These are facts. Where is the Japanese proff of ownership pre 1895?

            I do not trust the Japenese press per se – especially after Abe was busted recently for accusing the China of its ongoing need for violence – which was the most disgraceful comment I’ve heard in recent years coming from a prime minsiter. The Japanese FM later denied it and teh Japanese newspapers re-edited – but the damage was done. It was no surprise that Obama did not want to discuss the Diaoyou with a liar and right wing warmonger!!

            The 100% point is that Noda and Japan is deliberately denying that there is a sovereignty issue – so that Japan’s Daioyou claim does not have to face the ICJ – or have to face any law court. It means Japan is thus deliberately avoiding facing the ICJ!! It is a scam to stop people knowing the truth about the Diaoyou and their having to return ithe islands to China. The Japanese broke the 1978 Deng accord to resolve the Diaoyou Dispute peacfeully in private – by trying to buy the islands which did not belong to them. If the Japanese were talking to the Chinese in private about the Daioyou issue – then I could see why the Japanese were avoiding the ICJ – because they were wanting to negotiate privately. But the Japanese are not negotiating with teh Chinese privately – which means the Japanese are deliberately avoiding the legal ownership issue at the ICJ!!

            To quote your article and Noda “Therefore, as there exists no issue of territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands.” Also “Japan will not institute proceedings before the ICJ”

            There is 100% a sovereignty issue – you have China saying it owns the Diaoyou and it has historical proof – and China sends ships there weekjly if not daily!! I don’t agree with the Phillipline position – as I think they have to negotaite – but they have gone to the UN to seek clarity on their ownership claims!! Why does Japan not do the same – if Japan indeed owns the islands!!

          • chinditone

            Also, don’t forget that the US created this problem by failing to honour the Potsdam
            declaration and Tricky Dicky Nixon illegally giving the islands to Japan to stop Japanese cotton exports to the US in 1972.

            The USA created the problem by illegally giving the Chinese Daioyou islands to Japan to administer. http://www.forbes.com/sites/stephenharner/2013/02/14/the-u-s-could-have-prevented-the-senkakudiaoyu-crisis-why-did-it-not/

            Basically Nixon illegally gave the Diaoyou Islands to Japan as a bribe to stop
            Japanese cotton exports to the USA. http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656

          • Whirled Peas

            On the contrary, Japan is not the disputant, so has no reason to apply for a judgment by the ICJ. Whereas in the case of Dokdo, Japan is the disputant and therefore it put an application to the ICJ. If China feels strongly that the islands are theirs and they have solid evidence it has a reason to apply to the ICJ for arbitration. It doesn’t matter if you trust the Japanese press. That is irrelevant. I have now shown you via Noda’s address to his cabinet and to reporters that the Chinese press has misunderstood the message and Noda did Not rule out the ICJ. Any country that will accept the binding decision of the ICJ is feel free to apply to put forth their case using any arguments, maps, diagrams, etc in front of the international community. No country needs a special invitation. It also does not matter if Japan says there is no territorial dispute and there is not anything to negotiate over (as in my analogy with someone claiming your big toe). The United Nations ICJ is not a bilateral negotiation process, it is a hearing in which both parties bring their respective best evidence to be scrutinized carefully by an international panel of experts who will render a binding decision. You and I have gone round and round on everything from SF Treaty to Cairo and Potsdam to legitimacy of old maps and poems, but in the end we will not solve this issue. China should apply to the ICJ and see if Japan bites.

          • chinditone

            WP – you are getting yourself confused again. The Daioyou Islands belong to China. They were stolen by Japan in 1895. The Potsdam Declaration stipulated that they be returned. However, the US took control of the islands and used teh San Francisco Treaty to pretend that it owned/controlled them. In 1972 – Tricky Dicky Richard Nixon suckered the Japanese by giving them the Chinese Daioyou Islands (thus worthless) in exchange for the Japanese stopping cotton exports to the USA. In effect – Nixon paid for the deal with something that cost teh US nothing and was worthless – as they would have to be returned to China – once the scam was bust. Nixon was not called Tricky Dicky for nothing and he suckered the Japanese!! Its all here: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656

            It is 100% obvious that the Japanese are avoiding the sovereignty issue – Noda admits it in your JP newspaper article – by saying its not in dispute + thus avoiding the ICJ.

            I agree that the sensible thing would be to head to the ICJ – but I suspect that the Chinese are enjoying so much success diplomatically through humiliating and teasing the US and embarrassing Japan – that they may not do so for a while yet. Abe and the Japanese are stupid enough to think that the Chinese are not playing with them – and using the Diaoyou to split and disrupt the US/Japan alliance. Hillary Clinton was an amateur and was too aggressive and the Chinese used the Diaoyou issue to end the so-called US military Pivot to Asia. It will now be replaced by a more decent an commercial version of it. Would it not be funny if the Chinese got Kerry to agree to take the Daioyou issue to the ICJ!!

          • Whirled Peas

            Ah well. As I said, Japan is not avoiding the ICJ. Japan just has no reason to file. China can though, and I urge it. Then China can bring out all its evidence. We shall have to agree to disagree on some of your other points. But that’s the way the ball bounces. Signing off. WP

          • Guest

            You are keep repeating the same things is that Senkaku is 100% CN and I am sure JP also is saying Senkaku is JP. Who is the real owner? Let’s the issue judge by an international court. What is wrong with that? CN can take all evidence she has to the court, I am sure there is no restriction what can be presented in the court.

          • Guest

            Whether CN cooperates or not Philippines is still taken CN to court. It is proven how confident Phil is.
            Can CN take JP to ICJ? I am so doubtful if CN does so because CN has no evident and there is a possibility that JP will accept the challenge by CN.

          • chinditone

            I think everything the Phillipines does is in order to get their begging bowl out for US and Japanese aid. The latest US scam is to try and get China to abide by the rule of law – laws made by a corrupt US congress who get paid by multinationals and the superich and which are designed to extort money n their commercial areas – so that China gets ripped off. China is not a 5000 year old cukture for nothing and will not fall into this trap. Arbitrary laws designed for Western interests are not going to solve the dillmma of Seas getting shown on historical Chinese maps and China saying that they belong to them. It will take scholars from both China and the Phillipines spending a huge amount of hard work negotiating their way through it. If it is done properly – the Phillipines will negotiate a decent settlement and win Chinese support. However, the Phllipines are probably not acting on their own, but are being pushed by the US, and so it is unlikely that they will get anything from China. China has already stated that the Phillipine’s case is full of errors!! The UN arbitration method is not binding and China has already said it will not attend – and so I don’t really see what the Philippines will get out of it – expect perhapstrying giving the US a legal stick to annoy China with!!

          • Guest

            Really, law was made by corrupted US? Have you ever asked why CN signed the UNCLOS or WTO or other international agreements if they were corrupted?
            By the way, one of the pro CN in GT was saying the Nicaragua was disputing the ownership with the US and she won the court cases. I have no idea with this case but just wondering how the US was lost if the US had the controlled?

          • chinditone

            What about the US sanctions against Iran – which have not come through the UN? The US cannot just pass unilateral laws in Congress and then blackmail the rest f the world into complying!! Everything needs to be looked at as regards its merit and facts and what is accpetable to teh countries involved. The US has nothing to do with SE Asia – except the protection it historically gave against Japanese aggression in WW2 – and from Russia during the Cold War – and argueably to Korea during the Korean war. Ultimately the US should stop playing games and trying to contain China – work with China genuinely and work with all SE Asian countries genuinely in a win win way – rather than its historically selfish Zero Sum Gain. Additionally – if the US wants China to abide by the rule of law – it needs to show that the laws are indeed fair and reasonable and just – and that he US itself abides by these laws.

          • Guest

            Your saying is CN version is that the US is intentional stirring up the issue in ASIA to contain CN. But as a man in the middle, I am seeing thing differently: CN was causing the issue then the US came later to protect its business. You are not convinced me with the CN version, since currently most ASIA countries have the economy tied to CN, it is impossible for the US to tell the ASEAN if not ASIA to listen to her demands. If they do then CN must reason herself “why?”.

            CN has signed the agreement as her will, she must have read and understood all terms and conditions prior to sign. The rules are set to benefit to all members and not for a particular country if CN found they were unfair then she should have not signed them. Your saying is weir.

            The US doesn’t sign the UNCLOS because she believes this agreement is not suitable for the US therefore she doesn’t necessarily to follow its rules. However, quite often she is not entering other countries EEZ even she is not a member. On the other hand, CN did sign the agreement but attempts to ignore the agreement, the 9 dotted lines is a good example as it is overlapping other countries 200 NM EEZ. Which country CN or US should be criticized for not binding to the rule of law?

          • chinditone

            Guest – have you ever heard of wikileaks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikileaks . Read it carefully – it will show how the US acts abroad. The US’s morality is that of a bloodsucker after a free lunch abroad, from the unwary. Look at how China has benefitted by building roads, hospitals, infrastructure in Africa, and is now Africa’s largest trading partner. The US is so greedy – that it failed to do anything like this in Africa, and thus has failed in Africa commercially.

            Please stop boring this board with non Diaoyou issues. You are probably a Filipino Chinese – if indeed you have Chinese ancestry – and are hoping to benefit by the Phililipines finding oil in some of the claimed Chinese waters – so are desperate to find a way of doing so. You could possible be a disgruntled Taiwanese of Chinese ancestry. This has nothing to do with the Diaoyou issue however!!

          • Tom

            You are wrong again. Japan is worried to lose US support if he lost in ICJ. Able gave a wrong statement telling of no conflict. In fact, there is a conflict with Abe statement about those SanFranciso Treaty which China never accepted. Then Abe is wong to apply this for China and even going to ICJ, Japan will lose and that is why Japan not willing going to ICJ.

          • Guest

            With all of evidence you have shown It seems CN has very strong case in any international court, take JP to an international court please. I am sure CN will get the island without a bullet or intimidating. Please, please, please take JP to the court.

          • chinditone

            Why should China take Japan to the ICJ? It can negotiate with Japan whilst humiliating Japan and the US at the same time!! I am sure the Phillipines would love to see Japan and China go to the ICJ – because it backs up their UN arbitration policy. In my view the cases are very very different – but both sides should negotiate. I guess the difference is that the Phillipines are not very patient – and are using the situation as a begging bowl to get US and Japanese aid – and the Filipino presidents mates are desperate to drill for oil in the Chinese sector of the Sea. Will ordinary Filipino’s benefit from an enlarged Sea area or will ot only be the Filipino super rich as usual? The best bet – would be negotiations with China – and encouraging Chinese development in the Phillipines. IMO

          • Truth

            You’re hysterical … but thank you very much for highlighting the problems civilised, law abiding Japan has with its rabid neighbors by giving us a personal example of the mentality it is facing.

            I can just imagine voices like yours blaring out of louspeakers indoctrinating China’s sweatshop slave laborers. They probably resent them as much as any reasonable thinking person in the civilised world does.

            Contrary to comments made earlier, comments which again prove you have no understanding of the nature of international treaties and the rule of law, Japan is still a highly confident naval power which is in a binding agreement of mutual defense with the USA to ensure a mutually beneficial peace in the region and has the support of the United Nations.
            Who has China got on its side … Jackie Chan and Kim Jong Un?

            Funnily enough, I think even South Korea was take sides with the Japanese after all the violent disputes China has initiated in contravention of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea disregarding South Korean maritime EEZ. More than 5,000 Chinese illegal fishing boats have been seized since the 2001 agreement which China keeps breaking.

            The Chinese are running the same scam on the Korean’s Ieodo Reef.

            Like we say, the Chinese government may have total control over what its citizens hear but the rest of the world sees the bigger picture.

            Take it to the ICJ or STFU.

          • chinditone

            Civilised, law abiding Japan tried to nationalise and steal the Diaoyou islands and is nothing more than an international thief!! Civised and Law abiding Jpan broke the 1979 agreemnt with Japan to put the Diaouyou’s on teh backburner and negotiate the Diaoyiou’s. Civilised China has given Abe and Japan the opportunity to negotiate the Diaoyou’s but civilised law abiding Japan has declined – preferring to try and steal the Diaouou’s by stealth!!

            Japan is like a little kid getting caught stealing sweets in the local sweet shop by the shopkeeper. The little kid tries to pretend he is innocent, and cries for his mum (the USA) but unfortunately the facts tell against him!!

            By the way Mr sTruth – please stop your anti Chinese racism and please provide facts and arguments that relate to the Diaoyou issue. I personally like the Japanese – but they are wrong on the Diaoyou issue – and its hurting the Japanese economy and Japan’s future. Japan is never going to thrive by trying to become an Israel for the US’s military might!! Israel is hated in the Middle East and by all those who respect human rights.

          • Truth

            Fact. Japan claim the Terra nullius in a peaceful and lawful manner in 1895 and formally incorporate it as the Senkaku Islands.

            China and human right? Don’t make us laugh. Chinese citizens have no human rights. They are not even free to think what they want, read what they want, speak what they want and pity them if they are of the wrong ethnic minority.

            Study Mao to understand the ruling mentality. Look at all the promises he made with the ethnic minorities for independence within China, and then look how he broke those agreements as soon as he came into power and how the ruling elite has treated them like second class citizens on their own land persecuting them ever since.

            That is China. That is why no one trusts making agreements with it. That is why it won’t go to the ICJ where it cannot be seen to break a ruling without incurring severe penalties.

          • chinditone

            Interestingly China today busted the US for illegally handing the Diaoyou over to Japan. The US has a lot to answer for as they created the problem by Tricky Dicky Richard Nixon offloading the Diaoyou to Japan in exchange for Japan reducing the cotton exports. What is funny is that the Chinese know this – the US knows this – and China is just slowly turning up the pressure on the US and outing the US for its disgraceful and criminal behaviour over the Diaoyou Islands!! Richard Nixon should have been jailed for Watergate – and no doubt the theft of the Diaoyou’s!! Here is today’s link. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/8159275.html

          • Truth

            In China, thinking “wrongly” is a crime.

            “China busted”? … anything from a .cn domain is pure propaganda. We can be sure of that because any site which does not echo the Party’s Orwellian “truthspeak”, with be shut down by one of the 10,000s of Commie Party’s internet snoops and its owner or author sent to a slave labor camp without a trial for 20 years.

            http://www.amnesty.org.au/china/comments/11245/

            ‘About us’ for the People’s Daily, “People’s Daily Online has played a unique role in advocating the Party’s belief, guiding public opinion …” aka Communist Party propaganda. It’s not news, it says nothing, it’s just propaganda. Sorry, no one buys it and it makes your case look worse.

            China has the world’s most consummate censorship system. The Chinese people are not allowed to read nor discuss the truth about issues like the Senkaku Islands, let alone criticize their own government. Doing so could have them locked up for years without trial to be “re-educated”.

            http://en.rsf.org/internet-enemie-china,39741.html

            “Imagine being locked away for years, yet you’ve never been charged with a crime nor spoken to a lawyer … Imagine that while you are locked up the guards and officials burn you with cigarettes, give you electric shocks, deprive you of sleep and leave you shackled for hours in excruciatingly painful positions … In China detention without trial and torture are widespread. No charge or trial.

            Detained aren’t charged or tried. They have no access to their family. They are not taken before a judge. They have no access to a lawyer and no right of appeal. All of that violates international fair trial standards.”

          • chinditone

            sTruth – stop being racist. Learn to read and understand the truth in Japanese, US, European, and Chinese newspapaeers. all countries spin/lie to a certain extent – and the intelligent person will be able to work out the truth.

            If something is a lie – prove it. I proved that the Obama undersyands China raised teh tensions over the Senkaku’s article is a lie. Other times the Japanese Press tell the truth. You need to think through and examine articles!!

          • Guest

            There isn’t any negotiation as JP has clearly said “no dispute”, to win CN must take JP to ICJ. I know exactly what you and CN are eally upto: negotiation. By normal definition of negotiation: give and get. Yes, this is exactly what CN wants: gets a share of her neighbor. Consider if JP starts the negotiation process and then VN, Phil, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, Brunei, India also “negotiate” with CN which means CN will get a bit here a bit there. CN seems to be smart but trust me other countries are not stupid either. Please stop your crap.

          • chinditone

            Mr Guest – you have not posted one valid point or argument or fact on this board. You have the stupidest idea on the board as well – you are hoping and praying that China takes Japan to the ICJ – because of the Phillipines’s trying to steal China’s stake in the South China sea – you are hoping that if China goes to the ICJ and wins – and Phillipines wins the UN arbitration – then the Phillipines get a bigger area of the South China Sea. Please stop posting on this board – as the issue is about the Diaoyou’s and Japan/China – not the Phillipine’s nonsense. I am not saying that other countries are not smart – but you are facing 1.3 billion people and the largest active economy in the world – with perhaps the smartest scholars in the world. Who runs the Phillipines economy – is it not Filipino Chinese? The battle with China is an unequal battle – which is why everyone is trying to cling together – because they are scared of China. Look at South Korea – they have negotiated with China and their exports to China are booming – so much so that China has replaced the USA is their largest export market!! If the Phillipines were as smart as yiu think they are – they woud be negotiating with China rather than trying to confront China on behalf of the USA. The USA does not understand Asia and is not really part of Asia and is nothing more than a hired gun!!!

          • Guest

            JP refuses it to prove her consistent in that there is no dispute in Senkaku. Don’t you read and really understand WP’s comment. Please reread WP comment and try to understand it before continue with your argue.
            I hope this example will make some sense with you: let’s assume you lost your iPhone, a day later you saw a man held an iPhone looked exactly yours. So you asked him to give it back but he didn’t. Who did you think should file a case to police? You or him? If you were waiting for him to file then something must be really wrong with you.
            If CN has strong case (as Philippines in SCS dispute) she must have already taken JP to ICJ. I am waiting for that day to prove I am wrong and you are right.

          • chinditone

            Guest – I think you have posted the most ill informed post on this thread. Please read all the post and attached links before you repeat what WP and others have said. Thus far – the majority of proof – historical – Potsdam Declaration – SanFrancisco Treaty being signed without China – Richard Nixon’s tricking Japan by giving Japan the Diaoyou in return for reducing Cotton exports – see all the links – is on China’s side. Japan is basically stuck in the positition of a thief. Why does Jan run away from the ICJ? Well – Japan has no proof. Why does China not go to the ICJ – well China has put Japan and the US into a very embarrassing position – and I guess it has other reasons. We will all have to sit and watch the drama develop!!

          • Guest

            You are really sick man when come to the debate without listening to the other contestants, you are keeping repeating the Potsdam declaration while FE and WP have already proven it is irrelevant. If you are so sure with the evidence perhaps you should ask and convince CN to take JP to ICJ. Have you ever considered to offer your assistance to CN gov to win a court case? CN must greatly appreciate your assistance. Please ask CN to take JP to ICJ so you have a chance to present your finding.

          • chinditone

            Mr Guest – please refrain from posting insults – as this is a discussion for grown ups – not little kids with low IQ’s. Fair enough – if you have no facts or valid arguments to contribute – then just enjoy the discussion and the contributions of those who do. You may not like the facts because they stack up for China in the Diaoyou case – but maybe with others issues this is not the case. The Phillipines is a small economy and player on the ASEAN scene – whereas China and Japan are heavyweights – with China being the largest heavyweight. China is free to go to the ICJ or not to go – just as Japan is free to go or not to go. Japan chose to go to the ICJ over the Dodko/Takeshima issue but not the Diaoyou’s – which is very interesting!! China has so far chosen not to go to the ICJ – which is also interesting!!

          • Truth

            Actually, since the election of Park Geun-hye, Japan has decided to defer taking the Takeshima issue to the ICJ.

            Again, you have not a clue what you are talking about.

            Part of the reason it chose to was related to Korea’s illegal occupation of the islet. Since 1952, on three occasions, South Korea has refused to accept a binding decision from the court.

            It’s the same problem as with China, they are afraid of the court and having to accept an impartial legal decision.

          • chinditone

            Noda formally proposed to South Korea that they take the issue to the ICJ: http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-10/01/content_26687048.htm . That Japan has changed its mind is irrelevant – because Noda’s action 100% showed that Japan is not prepared to do it with the Diaoyou which is hypocritical.

            South Korea has issues with Japan – Comfort Women apologies and compensation – and a lack of trust as to Japan’s intentions in SE Asia leading then to drop out a military intelligence sharing with Japan.

            I suspect that the South Korea saw how Japan stole the Diaoyou’s and thus decided to grab the Dodko’s in case Japan tried the same trick with South Korea.

          • Guest

            Yes, this is a serious discussion. The only problem is with you, you can’t see the logic of the matter even they are quite simple which any people with average IQ should be able to see. A simple fact that JP is currently owns the island of courses JP has no dispute with her ownership, CN is the one who disputes the ownership of JP, to gain back the ownership CN must be the one who proposes or file a case. But you don’t see it and kept repeating non sense “why JP refuses…”.
            And you also kept bringing Potsdam declaration in your argument, let’s assuming you and CN were right then CN should have even had better chance to win in an international court. Please just sit down, take a couple of coffee and a cigarette…spend a few minutes just to listen to other people opinions and use your common sense to judge. Please don’t just argue, argue and argue. Continue to argue won’t change the fact is that CN has minimal to no chance in ICJ and how CN prefers to intimidate her neighbours,hopefully she will gets some “SHARES”, rather than an international court.
            As said before I am Chinese and I am caring for CN. Intimidating neighbours will lead to war which cost lives and resources. We know right now Australia, SK, JP, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, India and the US have formed the alliance, if CN continues to hostile or threatening then VN would may have joined the US as well. CN must stop her childish acts now to save the country.

          • chinditone

            Mr Guest – facts and proof please and new thoughts or deeper insight please or deeper reasoning – and stick to the subject – Diaoyou. We have all posted historical proof, posted the Posdam Declaration, debunked the San Francisco treaty, proved that Richard Nixon gave the Diaoyou to China in exchange for Japan reducing cotton exports to the USA. You are still just repeating what others have said and are trying to change the subject. If you want to talk about the US getting others to gang up on China and do the US’s dirty work – then please wait for a JapanesePress article on the subject and discuss it. The Diaoyou’s are a separate issue!!

          • Truth

            A classified Chinese government map from 1969 that was obtained by Japan’s government shows Beijing had labeled the islands as “Senkaku,” their Japanese name, and thus confirmed their control by Tokyo.

          • chinditone

            So you are writing a new law – sTruth Law – typo’s are law – and theft by typo’s is legitimate!!

          • Truth

            You’re saying that it was only a typo that the Chinese government called the Senkakus the Senkakus and admitted Japan’s ownership of them!

            You do make me laugh.

            Anyway, China cannot have them and continuing an argument on a blog site won’t get China them either.

            I am sorry but a contract (treaty) is a contract and even in supranational law statutes of limitation exist. Why didn’t China complain when the US Airforce was using them for bombing practise? Surely if it had been Chinese territory, that would have been an act of war?

            Only in China would people believe just because they once saw something in a Jackie Chan movie about a Monkey God 3,000 years ago that they still own someone else real estate.

            So what motivates you personally, Chinditone?

            “Chindit” suggests you are British rather than Chinese. Is it race hate against the Japanese, or perhaps a Chinese wife?

          • chinditone

            sTruth – please provide historical proof that the Diaoyou’s belong to Japan and not to China – that proves that your so called 1969 document was not a typo?

            Please stop insulting the Chinese people with your racism and stick to the Diaoyou isse please!!

            If you want to start a personal discussion on this board – why don’t you start the ball rolling by telling the board who you are, where you come from, what you do, and why you unreasonably hate the Chinese so much?

            I don’t hate the Japanese – i just don’t like war ciminals and theft. I have some Jewish ancestry who suffered at the hands of teh Nazi’s – so you could say its a little personal. If the Japanese genuinely own the Diaoyou and did not get it by theft and war crimes and deceit – please provide proof!!!

            Personally speaking – I think Japan would prosper in Asia – if it acted sincerely with China rather than in Phoney right wing criminal activity – and became a major factor in China’s growth and economy. Asia is in no mood to put up with any more Jpanese war criminals as China and South Korea have shown – so Japan needs to behave well and sincerely.

          • Guest

            Doesn’t matter what evidence you are providing here or there, they are all coming from CN and CN selected a portion of the document instead the whole document, you are not the one who found them but you read them from CN propaganda (is it true?), CN knows herself she can’t win with the evidence she has at this point in time. That is fact. As usual, hte future can be changed but we are not talking about the future here, aren’t we?

            Evidence? I am sure WP, FE or Truth…have provided them and they are more than enough. Haven’t you really read or attempted to understand them or just ignored them all?

          • chinditone

            Guest – there is nothing much worse than a racist in this owrld. Please do not resort to racism because you cannot argue or post valid links to support your arguments. Facts are facts – whether posted by the US or China or Japan. Of course – you need to make sure they are facts – and not some nonsense like Obama understanding China has raised tensions over the Diaoyou’s!!

          • Tom

            You must have wrong conception that China need to to to ICJ. The islands original belongs to China and Japan stole the islands illegally. Even US did not agree Japan own the islands. Now China can go to the islands freely without intervention from Japan. You are just like a Japanese propaganda to giving false statement to the world.

          • Truth

            According to international law, the Senkaku Islands have owners and occupiers and for China to enter those waters would be an act of unprovoked military aggression.

            Putting aside your lack of knowledge and lack of interest of becoming informed in such matters, this points to the underlying problem …

            Chinas refusal to accept international law and it’s apparent continuation to believe it is still the center of the universe and almighty power.

          • Tom

            You are wrong as the islands is origianlly belongs to China, how come the islands got Japanese owners. It is groundless and JP confirmed is stealing the islands from China. Even going to ICJ, JP will lose and that is why JP is not willing going to ICJ.
            In fact, JP vessels are provoking against China and Taiwan fishing vessels. JP using water guns, black smoke and create false evidence are unacceptable and shame to JP.

          • Guest

            Argue your points in an international court.

          • Whirled Peas

            No, China does not have the right to go to the islands freely without intervention. Just because China thinks it can prove Senkakus belong to China doesn’t mean they are China’s at this moment in time. Don’t confuse wishes with reality. China even recognized that the islands were Japanese until oil was discovered.

            Japan now has official administrative control over the Senkakus. But with all the evidence China has accumulated maybe the ICJ will rule in China’s favor , and then it will become China’s to do as it pleases.

          • chinditone

            China does have the right to go to the islands because they do belong to China. Japan unilaterally broke the Deng/Japan agreement to put the issue on the backburner and to secretly negotiate. Obviously when Noda pulled his nationalisation of the islands scam in breech of this agreement – then China had no choice but to assert thier ownership – so that Japan could not get away with this theft by stealth ploy. Japan needs to wake up and negotiate the issue with China. China has requested that Japan do so – but Jpan and Abe are avoiding it – which means that the Japnese are behaving disgracefully like international theives. The ICJ is a scam because Japan says it does not recognize a sovereignty issue – and so avoids a legal confrontation – and holds on to the islands. China will continue to assert its sovereignty over the islands – and Japan will lose. What Japan shuld do – is sue the US for Richard Nixon’s exchanging the Diaoyou for reducing cotton exports – as the Japanese were scacmmed by Nixon – the Japanese were given something worthless for reducing cotton exports to the USA!! http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656

          • chinditone

            sTruth – can you even read English? Read this – it Jpan who is refusing to go to the ICJ and who is refusing to acknowledge a sovereignty problem. http://opiniojuris.org/2012/10/03/japanese-pm-confirms-no-icj-for-senkakusdiaoyu-dispute-with-china/

          • Truth

            China has made no application, therefore Japan can make no refusal. Speculation on a blog is pointless

            I asked you which map and what date? You refused to answer.

            The Senkaku Islands have legal owners. Their ownership was established legally according to the laws at that time. If another nation disputes that, it’s for them to take it to the International Court.

            This isn’t another Tibet we are talking about.

            Given China’s notorious censorship of the internet, no one on Earth would believe a china.org.cn website except a CPC Party member.

          • chinditone

            STruth – Japan has refused to go to the ICJ – its a public statement by Noda – can’t you read or understand English!!! Its time for you to get a proper education!! Japan deny that their is a sovereinty problem – so that they can avoid the ICJ or any legal threat from China – hence the threat of war over the issue. Please read this carefully – stick to the point – and provide facts and truth in your answers!! Someone who calls themselves truth in their ID and simply writes lies is someone with a low IQ!! http://www.economist.com/news/christmas/21568696-behind-row-over-bunch-pacific-rocks-lies-sad-magical-history-okinawa-narrative

          • Truth

            Why should Japan propose? It’s clearly the legal owner and from it’s point of view there is no dispute.

            You’re right Whirled Peas, Chinditone is not just misreading the blog, they are dishonestly using a seemingly independent and non-Chinese blog as a cover for sources from the official Chinese government controlled Xinhua press agency.

            What Noda actually said to the United Nations General Assembly was that Japan would under any circumstance comply with the principle of making solutions peacefully and based on international laws as it always does in fact of aggression.

            Unlike China which continues illegal aggressive and invasive strategies, using not even just its military but even its “fishing fleet” in exactly the same way it used paramilitary patrol vessels and fishing boats against the Philippines over another resource-rich and strategically important area of the sea.

          • chinditone

            sTruth – why should Japan refuse to face the ICJ – if they have nothing to hide? Why did Noda publically say that he would refuse to go to the ICJ? Answer – because he knows he has something to hide and does not have a legal case. Why does Jpan deny that there is a sovereinty/ownership issue. Because it does not want to have to prove it owns the Diaoyou’s because it has no proof. See Sovereignty Dispute in Wikipedia article. “Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands#cite_note-50

          • Truth

            Japan isn’t refusing to face the ICJ. It is refusing to start proceedings because it sees no conflict. That is quite a different matter.

            You are falsely representing the matter and falsely quoting Noda.

          • Truth

            Japan isn’t refusing to face the ICJ. It is refusing to start proceedings because it sees no conflict. That is quite a different matter.

            You are falsely representing the matter and falsely quoting Noda.

            The Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

          • Truth

            Japan isn’t refusing to face the ICJ. It is refusing to start proceedings because it sees no conflict. That is quite a different matter.

            You are falsely representing the matter and falsely quoting Noda.

            The Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

          • mjs55528

            just go die please

          • Truth

            No, what Noda said to the reporter was that Japan “will not institute proceedings”. That means Japan was not going to start them which is entirely different from “refusing” as you corrupt it.

            You ask me for facts? I asked you which map published when 3 times now and you refuse to answer.

            http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/noda/statement/201210/01kaiken_e.html

            Drop the person insults.

          • chinditone

            STruth – drop the lies and stupidity and start posting facts and serious arguments – and I’ll stop exposing your lies and stupidity and you will stop feeling so insulted by what you post.

            Noda specifically said that he has no intention of using the ICJ with China – ie in other words, he was refusing to do so. See newspaper article below

            “Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda said on Monday that Japan has no intention to use the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to solve tensions with China over islands in the East China Sea as Japan believes no territorial dispute officially exists.”

            Now why would Noda refuse to go to the ICJ with China over the Daioyou’s when Noda said he would be going to the ICJ with Korea wover the Dodko?

            The answer is because Noda and Jpan know that they have illegally stolen the Daioyou from China!! The Jpanese obviously have proof and facts for the Dodko but not the Diaoyou!!!

            “In August, the Japanese government formally proposed to South Korea that the two countries jointly seek a resolution at the ICJ in The Hague to their dispute over a group of sparsely inhabited islands controlled by Seoul but claimed by Tokyo.”

            http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-10/01/content_26687048.htm

          • chinditone

            The Diaoyou’s do not belong to Japan – Japan is just adminstering them until they are returned to China. Japan stole the Daioyou islands from China in 1895 – and was forced to sign the Potsdam Declaration at the end of World War 2 – in which it relinquished legal control of the Diayou’s. Read very carefull – its all here!! http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island “According to the Cairo Declaration, the Potsdam Proclamation and other important proclamations of international conferences, Japan’s occupation of Diaoyu Islands was a grave breach of international law. The Cairo Declaration, concluded by China, the US and Britain on December 1, 1943, stipulated that “all territories Japan stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and the Pascadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China”. On July 26, 1945, China, the US and Britain issued the Potsdam Proclamation. (The Soviet Union attended this meeting on August 8.) Article Eight highlighted that “The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the Islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.” On August 15, 1945, the Mikado of Japan accepted the Potsdam Proclamation and surrendered unconditionally.” That the US illegally never carried out the Potsdam Declaration stipulations is down to US corruption and its COLD WAR fears of china. The US illgellay handed the Diaoyou over to Japanese control in 1972. This shows the world the the Japanese are illegal thieves – and will remain so – until they return te stolen islands.

          • Guest

            Hahaha… Now I can understand why WP & FE are stopping to response to this man. He has completely ignored the other people argue or opinions. What he can do is to present the evidence that have been censored by CN gov. He must be a 50 cents army member.

          • Guest

            Tom you know when you can’t sort thing out between you and your neighbor then if you had a strong case you would say to your neighbor “see you in the court”. I am waiting to hear CN saying “let’s sort it out by an international court”.

          • Guest

            Very funny, if it was not recognised by CN then why CN map was showing Senkaku was JP in CN map? If you or CN believe Senkaku is not recognised by international then take JP to an international court. Why doesn’t CN do that? LMAO

          • Guest

            Tom, If you know that JP was no longer interested in war after the wwII therefore she is not ready for war against CN. CN is just trespassing the island, trespassing is not how we use to determine the ownership of the island. I am sure JP is now must have been recalculated her position whether continue to stay calm or ready for war. God bless JP, ASEAN.

          • Guest

            Tom there is other peaceful way to claim the island if CN was really the owner. What CN needs to do is to log a court case with ICJ to prove its point. I am really doubtful if CN would do so, it is quite simple it has no evident. You know in SCS? Philippines is now taken CN to the court and CN has rejected. Why doesn’t CN use this opportunity to prove to the world is that CN has strong evident? Use your common sense to judge Tom. I am a Chinese but I can sense the fishy of CN claims therefore I don’t support CN on her claims whether Senkaku or the 9 dotted lines.

          • Guest

            Tom, you are really confused. “Afraid” is not the sign to prove the owner status, I am not sure how do you get into that conclusion and what make you believe JP is not confident in war with CN? I don’t really remember when was JP lost any battle to CN? Can you remind me one? What I know is Genghis Khan was defeated, 1894 and 40′s CN was lost to JP.
            Why can’t JP buy the island from its citizen? Lol
            The issue is CN is over confident with its power, it believes the whole region must listen to its command and to give up their territories. Thing doesn’t work that way Tom. CN is now stuck and has no way out: can’t withdraw from Senkaku or South CN Sea and also can’t go further with its claims else it will be destroyed by the alliances or will be overthrown by its own people.
            JP has shown her calm in the last few months which is good for the world but I am not sure how long she can stay with that cool attitude if CN continues intimidating her.

          • Tom

            Japan is absoluately no confident in war with China and that is why JP asked US support and this is the fact. Without US support, Abe knows he will lose. You should know China is not afraid in war with Japan. Now CN can go to islands freely and it is a breakthrough the control of JP and JP is no longer say the islands is under control by JP anymore. The wrose is JP is going to extreme right direction which makes alert in the whole region and US.

          • Guest

            Tom in reality no country would confident in war only warmonger would believe in its winnie, you may be right is that JP is not confident in war because she is no longer interested in fighting after the WWII but keep in mind “Japanese are warriors, it is in her blood & gene”. if CN was so confident in war she would have already fired the first shot to JP as she did to VN in the border war 1979 (this war was a big miscalcultion by CN, she lost more 30 thousand young soldiers in just 17 days) and in Spratly in 1988. As said before I could not remember if CN had ever defeated JP in any battle between the countries and with this pressure in mind CN would have already lost the war to JP but why was CN asking for war? To prove her power? There are many ways CN can use to prove her power rather than war.

            CN is not freely going to the island, she is just sneaking in few miles. The region has been in chaos in the last 2 decades when CN started increasing her military budget and attacked VN in Spratly to steal 8 little reefs from VN.
            CN has now just entered the South Korea safe zone, I am sure not for too long there will be an other “dispute” in territory…
            CN is doing all of this type of intimidating because she believes the US is declining and it is time for CN to hold the power. CN may be right itch her thought as until now we are seeing the US has seemed to be given up, the US seems to struggle to defend from CN rather than actively attacking. However, we must wait until “the fat lady sing” to know.

          • Far East

            Well said!!

          • fe5295929

            hope you get your stomach eviscerated, and your entrails fall out.

          • Truth

            And I hope in your next life you reincarnate you grow hairy balls and a big penis … even if you are a woman.

            ————-
            Note to moderator, this individual is making similar death threats over many Japan related blogs, e.g.

            http://www.rjkoehler.com/2013/02/27/grocers-threaten-boycott-but-will-japanese-beer-sales-suffer/

            https://twitter.com/JamesJPN/status/199321498559840256

            Possibly from a Los Angeles IP address, although expect that to change if they are outed.

          • ii599599

            i would happily slit your windpipe and let you choke on your own blood. Twat

          • chinditone

            Whirling Peas – take a deep breath – clear the mind – and read some facts. The US adminsitration of the Diaoyou Islands and the handing over of the Diaoyou’s to the US ally Japan – was 100% due to the US’s Cold War efforts. When the US/China and Russia were allies – the US asked Japan to relinquish the stolen Diaoyou Islands under the Potsdam Declaration. However – when events in China did not go to plan according to the US and relations with Moscow changed – the US held on the Daioyou to spite China and Moscow and for miliary purposes. The Japanese know the Diaoyou as the Senkaku’s and claim that they are part of the Ryukyu Islands. The Ryuku Islands – which include the Daioyou’s/Senakaku’s are listed in Wikipedia as former polities of the Cold War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_polities_of_the_Cold_War

            There is now no Cold War – and the islands need to be handed back to China!! Japan has zero legitimate claim over them and its stupid for the US not to come clean and order Japan to do so – so that peace is restored between Japan and China!!

        • yo yo jiggy wit it!

          So they say there isn’t a dispute, THERE SHOULDN’T BE! if china had such
          an issue, then where was there disagreements back in 1895 when the
          islands where made part of Japanese territory? where were they when
          Japan lost the 2nd world war? where were they when Japan was given the
          islands back from the US? where where the claims of typos or mistakes
          when both OFFICIAL CHINESE POLITICIANS and OFFICIAL CHINESE DOCUMENTS
          listed the islands as Senkaku?

          the fact of the matter is, even
          if the Islands DID belong to china, they waited too long and now there
          is room to doubt their claims! if you say something belongs to you, then
          wouldn’t you try to get it back from DAY 1? You say crap like “if someone steals something from you wouldn’t you get it back?” HELL YEA I’D GET IT BACK! A.S.A.P! not over 80 years later! why the wait? could it be that china did not care back then? could it be that they saw no value in them? could it be that it was not worth the effort back then? then the reserves of resources are found AND NOW THEY IS IN A BLOODY PANIC! before it was all “pfft” now it’s all “MINE MINE MINE!

          i
          understand china went through a lot of stuff during those times, but from what i see, they
          have been placed in a “Political Checkmate” as Japan and the U.S. have
          both done what needed to be done in order to make the islands Japan (all the treaties and such). China may not of been included, and you say that is unfair, but China did not make a fuss. not until they found potential in the islands

          Tell us, Why did china wait so long? Japan had it’s ass whooped in WW2, Had severe restrictions placed on it and China was allies with the U.S., hell after world war 2 there were several U.S. soldiers living in China before they went back home, and the Chinese where grateful to have the opportunity to house them. I’m Sure they could of worked something out. china may of been a wreck after world war 2, so was Japan and they striped to become one of the greatest countries on earth. what did the Chinese do?
          .

          As i said, even IF (a pretty big ass if) the islands did belong to china, they waited too damn long. It’s a clear FACT that china did jack all to claim the islands until the resources where found in them. If something is stolen from you, you get it back on day 1! PERIOD! you don’t wait a week, a month, a year and if you truly care for it especially not for a few decades. otherwise you are no different than a child who claims a toy is his just because someone else seems to have more fun with it.

          China has been irresponsible and negligent. whereas Japan has always claimed the islands where theirs. they acknowledge the islands the Russians captured from them as under Russia’s care and are currently trying diplomatic solutions to get them back. So you can’t say Japan are trying to steal cause they will acknowledge if there is a dispute or not. China just came outta nowhere and after so many years, they will be seen as an irresponsible carer who only looks after the things with value. Even IF (again, big if) the islands are china’s, China does not deserve them.

          • chinditone

            Jiggy boy – why don’t you live by the logic of your own argument. Why give the good folks on this board your home address and list of assets – so that people can help themselves to any asset that you have not touched for 10 years? If you are a youngster – why don’t you give us your parents address and lists of items that they have not touched for 10 years. Then everyone on the board could go around to your house – or your parents house – and help themslves to your 10 year+ assets and steal them with your agreement? How would you feel? The truth is that you would be angry and would be a fool to allow it? Its the same deal with the Diaoyou’s. Just because China was not focussed on it – it does not mean its not China’s!! If you steal someone asset – that someone has forgotten about – one day they may remember and send teh police around to collect it. Unfortunately for Jpan – the Diaoyou’s have now gotten China’s attention – and its pretty much game over – unless Japan wants a war or Japan fails to negotiate.

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            Dude, just explain to me, WHat was china doing during this time? of corse you don’t give people sensitive stuff. that is obviouse. but if that was stuff was touched for even a SECOND, then i immedietly do something about it. as would anyone! what i want to know is what kept china from doing anything? China is fully prepared for war for this, shouting crap like “kill all the Japanese” “Even if china is filled with graves, we must kill all the Japanese” Obviously it must be very important for the government to allow that sort of thing, but what kept them from making a fuss then? THATS what i want to know. i’m trying to be as un biased as possible, but China does not seem very responsible. they don’t even give any excuses as to why they have not done anything for over 80 freaking years.

            It’s just as i said, China did not do anything to stop this for over 80 years. why? what happened? what makes now so special to back then that china is gearing up for war? i’ll tell you: RESOURCES. as i said, a kid who only wants something since someone else has more fun with it.

            If someone steals something, do something about it from day ONE. It’s a fact that the islands are currently under japan administration, and that is recognized. China has handled it poorly, and due to all the treaties, they are basically in political check. they don’t like how the pieces on the board are set, and a forcing the pieces to suit themselves.

            Your giving me all kinds of examples, but all i say is “do something about it from the very beginning” China failed to do so. You’re just justifying that china has been irresponsible and handled the situation poorly, that they are the militants and extremists and, if you failed to notice, they are way too much like japan was back in their imperial colonizing era. If something was this important, why wait too long? if something truly belongs to you, regardless of it’s value, then get it back from day one. if the islands were truly china’s then they should of tried to get them back BEFORE the resources became known. that’s what it means to be responsible for you’re property.

            no one would stand for their stuff being taken, no one would give up all their assets for some asshole neighbor. No one would be happy about it, and you would be a fool to do nothing. but you would be an irresponsible and even bigger fool to just stand by for over 80 years and do nothing.

          • chinditone

            Jiggyboy dude – you need a serious history lesson – as you are way behind the understanding curve. China became a football that was kicked around by Great Britain, France, Germany,Japan, the US, in the 1800′s – as it was carved up by the colonial powers and its assets stripped. The British forced China to accept Opium as payments for its goods – and China was beated up when it resisted during the Opium war. China has been through some sad sad times. Obviously when Chairman Mao booted the colonialists out of China – so that China could make its own decisions – China’s history and who it is – became very important. Mao did what you could call the China re-set. You will notice that China ot very excited when it got Hong Kong back from the ex colonialst power Great Britain and when it got Macoa back from Portugal. Why was China excited – well because these lands were stolen or rather Great Britain and Portugal used gun boat diplomacy to force an unequal treaty on China for Macoa and Hong Kong. Likewise – the Diaoyou Islands were stolen from China by Japan after the Sino Japan war in 1895 – when China was weak. The stolen Chinese Diaoyou islands should have been returned by Japan to China as per the Potsdam Declaration aftyer world war 2. However, Mao and teh Communist, won the Chinese civil war, and the US decided to hold on to the Diaoypu islands for Cold War Reasons – see Ryukuku Islands in US Cold War polities here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_polities_of_the_Cold_War – and it was administered by the US and the US under Tricky Dicky Richard Nixon illegally handed the islands over to Japn in 1972. The Chinese value their assets and want the Diaoyou’s back. They have termed the Daioyou’s part of sacred Chinese territories and part of their core national interests. The Japanese have zero legal rights to the Daioyou islands and are simply holding on to them becuase of gas and security interets. The US should force Jpan to negotiate with China and return them to China – so that there is no stupid war over them

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            YES YOU LISTENED! THAT’S WHAT I NEEDED TO KNOW! or reminded of. i already knew what you said.

            but in the end, the said truth is that while china was in trouble at home, Japan and the rest of the world moved the pieces to ensure the islands where part of japan through the treaties and such.

            I assume the cold war reasons are that china was a communistic country, and due to the prejudice against red back then (communism flag) they basically cut the communications for china.

            It’s sad, i get your point. but the fact is, China is in a state of political check-mate. The treaties where made when china could not be taken seriously. On a game like this, there is no going back and changing the pieces. What japan and the U.S. did during the 80 year period of time (or 30, lets focus after WW2) is internationally recognized as legit, and china didn’t do a damn thing. it’s just that china could not do anything or did nothing at the time, and neither sides had a problem with it. and after years and years, a status quo was made, with the islands under japans administration. no disputes, no anger, no objections, the world was just moving on.

            But when the resources where found, China was in a state to talk, But now that they can, they have gone completely overboard, and fail to see that they have been forcing the tensions to extremes. their call for a Japanese genocide during the riots for instance.

            You’re right. the U.S. Japan and china do need to talk to avoid a war. but due to all these treaties and talks that china had no place in, There is nothing they can do EXCEPT use force. The methods japan and the U.S. kinda ensure there should be no dispute since it is internationally recognized through the U.N. which means united nations, so several countries have already agreed that the islands belong to japan. so did official Chinese government members every now and then, but these small notices of senkaku from china’s side can easily be pushed away. besides, i reckon it could of been a slip of the tongue or the type writer anyway.

            As i said, China is in a international political check-mate. the islands are under japans administration as a result because Japan did everything they had to in order to get them. the time when china should of done something is past, and they are not happy (obviously). The game is already done, and china was dealt a bad hand. Now they want to start a new game with them as a dominant force, and are making up for their weakness by bashing on everyone.

            It’s a matter of karate kyle. a guy who is mocked and picked on, then becomes a grand martial artist, only to become the very bully he despised. China is handling the situation poorly. the fact remains that the U.N. recognizes the Islands as japan’s and as far as japan is concerned, the game is over. Foolish, cruel, and unfair you may say, and i’d agree, but Japan did what it had to, and china did not. that’s the way things are and NOW look at the mess they’re in.

            Even if the islands did belong to china, they are under the care of japan now. unfair? so was the lack of rights for African Americans. Cruel? so was slavery. but in the end, people move on bit by bit, and china is taking things WAY too far. it’s understandable, but japan has already apologized for the war, just not in a way china wants.

          • chinditone

            Again – yoyo boy – you need a big big history lesson. Have you ever read the Art of War?

            The Chinese have already started sending weekly ships to their Diaoyou Islands and have already started taking ownership. They are sending ships – planes – bouys – etc etc. It will only increase – and there is nothing Japan can do about it. If Japan tries to send in its navy – China will respond. Japan is bascially check mated. If Japan tries to go it alone militarily and attack China – the US will not support Japan – as this is not part of the US/Japan defense treaty!!

            The US is checkmated because the US blantantly stole the islands for their Cold War purposes and now the world knows about it. The longer it goes on – the worse PR that the US will get. If the US back Jaapn in its theft – it will make the US look like a thief – and will undermine its rule of law and trying to get China to comply with a US system of rule of law. Additionally – if the US supports Jpan militarily – it will impact US trade with China – and China will stop supporting the US economy. In fact – the situation is a disaster for the US – and the quicker its over for the US the better.

            The US has already dumped flakey Abe – as it trusts him about as much as it trust a rattlesnake – and Abe had to return to Japan empty handed after his recent visit to the US. This article covers the US attitude to Abe and Japan.

            http://www.dispatchjapan.com/blog/kurt-campbell/

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            umm. maybe you missed the part of when china was pre occupied with it’s own troubles, japan went through political measures and were given the islands administrative rights by the U.S. you sound just like the pro Chinese websites and news and politicians, not even considering japans view or what it went through. you even deny facts that japan apologized in the 90s, and fail to acknowledge that it went through steel measures as it was supposed to.

            WHAT? NO! CHINA IS SEND SHIPS AND BOATS ONTO DISPUTED TERRIROTY? NO WAY? come on man, that happens about once a week. if you ask me, china should of done so a hell of a lot earlier. I need a history lesson? you’re the one who denies japan apologized, you’re the one who denies this and denies that, and when that dude earlier wrote it all down for you, you dismissed it and barely acknowledged it, and when you did, for as little as that was, you said it didn’t count, so don’t lecture me on needing a history lesson why you intentionally ignore it.

            YES japan will be supported by the U.S. it’s part of the treaty, again YOU fail to see the facts. Japan can’t have a military that can get involved on an international playing field. and to that end, the U.S. is SUPPOSED to get involved in order to defend it. there is a U.S. military base in Japan, remember? do you think if china attacks and U.S. militants get killed, they will just stand there twiddling their thumbs?

            If the US stole the islands then why all the heat to Japan then? why not say something, anything when the issues first occurred? even if china is weak, the fact they let the whole thing drag on is a big ass mistake on their part, because history is not going to acknowledge that they did anything until their was value in the islands.

            I’m done with you. you are clearly swept under the Chinese rug of patriotism that is knee deep in anti japan sentiment. you ignore the truth, the facts, the history and there is no use talking to someone who is beyond bias and prejudiced measures. It is clear from the way you speak (or type) that you WANT the US and Japan to suffer. you WANT them destroyed and hurt. You insult both japan and the u.s. and i bet you’re ready to insult everyone who disagrees with china. you even fail to recognize that a war with the US and Japan can also mean a war on several levels for china, do you think all the other countries with territory issues are going to just stand still if china goes to war? hell no! just like WW1, one by one, others will jump on the wagon, and China will have it’s hands full. this is more than just one country v.s 2, this could involve the whole world. even china knows that a war could damage all the hard work they’ve done. but i bet you would never type that here would you.

            And p.s. blogs are about as useful as talking to one person, they do not reflect the complete views on an entire people. they are biased, personal point of viewed, and only focus on what the person wants to focus on. kinda like china’s one sided media.

            You clearly need to take a deep breath, step back from this, and look at both sides. You know china’s side, now focus on japan, not in a prejudiced way, but from their view.

            All in all, lets just hope that somehow someway, they can find a common ground.

            and p.s. i have read the art of war. care to elaborate on which part is relevant? the high ground bit? the know your enemy bit? there are a lot of bits.

            good luck to you. peace homie! i’m done.

          • damien.J

            “If the US stole the islands then why all the heat to Japan then? why not
            say something, anything when the issues first occurred? even if china
            is weak, the fact they let the whole thing drag on is a big ass mistake
            on their part, because history is not going to acknowledge that they did
            anything until their was value in the islands.”

            Should of wrote “was” there. China is pretty strong now you know.

          • chinditone

            China is strong – but it comes from being a colonial victim in the past and emphasises peaceful developement. China waited for Hong Kong – they waited for Macao. China will also get the Diaoyou’s – and it will proabaly be peacefully – unless Japan does something stupid. Interestingly China busted the US today as the “creator” of Diaoyou problem. http://www.china.org.cn/china/NPC_CPPCC_2013/2013-03/06/content_28146698.htm . I hope the Daioyou issue can be resolved quickly for Japan as they desperately need China’s help with their economy!! Also, China’s top rating agency thinks Abenomics is going to be a flop and will hurt Japan. If true – Japan is going to be under massive massive pressure to fix the Daioyou problem – and restore trade with China to its maximum potential. http://qz.com/59292/a-little-known-chinese-rating-agency-may-be-biased-lucky-or-both-but-it-also-may-be-right/

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            That’s true but then there will always be nay-Sayers. there are those who think abenomics could work. there are others who think it is simply the first step and must be abandoned at some point in order to progress to something better. that goes for more than just china but china will never say something positive so it’s kinda hard to distinguish between the actual truth and what is just biased.

            In politics there will always be a point of view. people think things will work, others are sure it will fail. it’s always a gamble because the world is always changing. would could work yesterday could be invalid tomorrow. Nothing works forever, even abenomics will have to change and so will china at some point. it’s the way of the world and existence.
            An example is the mining tax in Australia, introduced back in 2008. WOuld of made millions for australia because of the mining boom. But last year, the boom stalled and the tax is now more of a liability than asset, so it won’t work no more.
            The same can be said for abenomics, It can work, it can fail. currently it seems to be doing fine, eventually, like everything else it HAS to change. that’s the order of the world. a wise man said that everything must be re written every 20 or so years (Thomas something, an American) because what can work for the past, won’t for the present. just like evolution, we adapt, we evolve, we survive. in order to do that, humanity must change along with the times and leave the past methods behind.

            Truth be told, i kinda hope that, in a parrell universe, japan apologies in a way that no one can doubt them by giving the islands to china. but that’s just a fairy tail, and i doubt it would solve anything anymore. maybe Korea’s islands, unlikely but it’s a nice thought. too bad reality tends to bitch slap everything.

            The U.S was always the creator of the issue. that will eventually be common knowledge, but only those who research this issue in depth would already know. I agree that The US should of involved china in all the talks and treaties but because of their prejudice against communism nations, there was never much hope with that, and china had it’s own issues to take care of at home. As i said, China was played and they are not happy about it.

            I don’t think Japan is the one to worry about, they have been grinding their teeth for the most part. i won’t deny they do do stupid things that hurt the situation but if there is any actions to worry about, it’s china. With that colonel telling Australia to play the lamb? dude, no one wants to be told that!

            if they want to settle this peacefully, they have to explain about the 80 years when they did not claim the islands despite it supposedly being their territory. Explain that they were otherwise engaged in matters they had to attend to. not just to random people but the world! They don’t though, they just say “that’s mine, always has been” and don’t even give a reason about what took them so long. by not doing so, they are leaving a lot of people skeptical, but explaining could be a real boost. instead they resort to showing off their stuff, making claims about being peaceful but still keeping a finger on the trigger.

            They should just share the islands, and both can reap the benifits. but since both are knee deep in patriotism now, how would one achieve that. both are both prideful as well, and neither want to look like an ass kisser to anyone. it is REALLY tricky this situation. Both need a time out. I say leave the islands alone for now. no one touch em, let hot heads cool down, then come around a single table, give in depth explanations that goes over all of their history, with the islands, and give reasons as to why this did not happen and that did not happen. Then take it to the UN court and let them decide. Matter resolved unless one brags too much and gets an ass kicking, or if one is unhappy with the result and uses force anyway. but in both cases, the agressor will be the one at fault and all will know.

            PEACE please!

          • chinditone

            Yes – PEACE please. Japan and China actually need each other and are brothers in a weird kind of way. I’ve just finished reading Ezra Vogel’s Deng biography – definitely worth a read – as Deng was immensely impressed by the top Japanese manufacturers Matsushita etc etc. He invited them over to rebuild China and they did!! Incredible harmony and incredible co-operation and generosity by the Japanese. The Japanese felt they were compensating for WW2 and saying sorry by helping China. A good China Japan relationship can definitely be achieved – and China has a new Japan centric Foreign Minister. If China thrives – one of the cogs in China’s success will be Japanese – just as another cog will be American. Also, China and Japan harmony can spill over into Russia and the whole of the ASEAN – and will reduce Japan’s reliance on the USA – militarily and economically – which would be a good thing.

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            it’s a good dream. but too unlikely. both sides have done too much and neither are going to stop from the looks of it.

            As i said, both should just leave the islands, for lets say, a year. then when things cool down, gather round and talk.

            i would so love a peaceful Asia, but china makes it way too clear that is unlikely, both the riots and the military people. and everything they say makes japan defient, kinda like two brothers squabling simply because they want the last say.

            lets keep praying homie.

            P.S. i’m taking you whole “hope you don’t live in a dangerous neighborhood” as a joke, even though it seems like you’re trying to insult me. gotta get jiggy wit it ya know! (will smith song, getting jiggy with it if you’re wondering,)

          • chinditone

            Yo Yo man – peace. I was just using it as an example to make a point – no reality intended – and I hope no thieves know where you live. Do take security precautions because the world is full of thieves!! The dangerous neighbourhood was just a reference to Japan stealing the Daiyou islands which was the same as or like someone in your neighbourhood stealing your stuff. If this happened to me or to you – we’d be upset and try to get it back – even if it was not something we had used for a long time!! What I’m saying is that the Chinese are behaving in a predictable way!!!

          • yo yo jiggy wit it!

            same here, to me, if china had acted during the 80 years, even if just a little despite their sad state at the time, there would be a dispute that even japan would have to acknowledge. if china can explain all the reasons why it took them to try and get the islands back, even i would say they are chinese property.

            If anyone steals stuff, it’s common to act on day 1, hell school kids get into fights over pencisl and rubbers, but they don’t wait 8 or 80 days to get payback.

            If china simply explains why they did not do anything in 1895, during americas administration of the islands, when japan was handed back the islands, during the signing of the treaties and acknowledges that they had other things to do at the time and could not make claims to the islands, my view and others would have to change. but since they only did so when the stuff was valuable, there will be many people who think they’re just making claims. i seriously wonder why they haven’t done so. to me, it’s just a reason to not believe their claims. but if they do, then yay for them.

            well, i’m beat, nice chatting, but try not to seem too bias and prejudice. it okay to have you own views but if you seem too one sided, it’s going to turn people off. it’d be like an extreme debate between two religious zealots.

            hope for peace y’all

          • chinditone

            Danien J – you need to study China a bit. What are you looking for? Economic strength? Military strength? Why do you think that China’s GDP has quadrupled since 2001 whilst the US played King Kong in Iraq and Afghanistan? http://blog.uncommonwisdomdaily.com/china-gdp-to-pass-us-by-2017-8933 The answer is that playing King Kong – and waging war has proven to a complete waste of money for the US – wrecking the US economy.

            The Diaoyou’s are China’s property to do with as they wish. To leave them to rot or to develop them to the max!! Do your friends tell you what to do with your property? Whether there is or is not any oil or gas on the islands is irrelevant to the ownership issue.

            China’s letting the Diaoyou Issue drag on is pure genius. It has embarrassed the USA – because the truth about the US stealing the islands after the Potsdam Declaration has come out and the truth about the US illegally giving the islands to Japan has come out. The Diaoyou Islands has also woken the US up to the dangers of a right wing govt. in Japan trying to get the US to wage wars for them – a little like Netanyahu trying to get the US to wage war with Iran!! It has also made the US make public that they are not really interested in going to go to war with China over the rocks – and this has sobered up an insane Abe.

            I would say that the Chinese have already won big on the Daioyou’s and will continue to do so – until the US forces Japan to negotiate. All the US has to do is to say publically that the islands are not covered by the US defense treaty – as the Japanese do not have sovereignty over the islands – and that the Japanese have to negotiate sovereignty with the Chinese. Then it will be down to the Chinese and Japanese to sort out – and the US walks free!

            The Japanese should cut their losses and negotiate as qucikly as possible. Saving face is stupid as their owning the islands is one big lie – which has now been publically exposed – making Japan look like an international thief – and its also reminded the international community that the world did not deal with the World War 2 Japanese war criminals. Abe’s grandfather was a war criminal and was jailed after World War 2!! The Diaoyou’s are doing serious damage to Japan’s international credibility kind of like hanging a thief/war criminal sign around your neck and walking down the street.

          • damien.J

            no no no! i was just referring that that yo yo jiggy with it dude wrote his sentence wrong. he said china was a strong power, not is. so the sentence and his argument made no sence. dude, do you tell everyone to study history. because people have their own opinions and not all of them a high for china. some are pretty low. i was just trying to correct the mans mistake, thats all. i’m just a lurker. leave me outta this.

          • damien.J

            jeez dude, i just looked up the first sentence you wrote but the yo yo guy was right. you are one sided. after going through all your talks, it no wonder they saw no use talking to you, you are way too pro china to see reason. but as i said, leave me outta it. i don’t particularly care for china but i still don’t want there to be war.

          • chinditone

            No worries Mr Damien J – some people like to understand things – others like to do other things with their lives. We are all free to choose – and we all have different focusses with our lives. China is one of the world’s wonders – so most people will want to understand it – and learn about its culture.

          • chinditone

            Yoyo man peace to you. I hope there are no thieves in your neighbourhood. Watch the Diaoyou space and watch it unfold. The US cannot afford to encourage Japn to be aggressive – whilst Japan can’t afford to be aggressive. Whilst the US played King Kong militarily in Iraq and Afghanistan – China’s economy quadrupled!! War is for idiots – and Obama and the US are slowly learning this painful lesson. If I look at it from Japan’s side – I can only see pain – as Abe is out of his depth. The retiring Japanese to Japan said that the Japanese position on the Daioyou’s was wrong and they should negotiate with China and not ruin the relationship. The ambassador war right. Japan has invested heavily in China and has helped China develop. They should continue to help China develop and they should reap the reward of friendly relations with China and make a lot of money doing so. Japan should learn from South Korea who milks both China and the US!! The Japanese should do the same. Abe should send some envoys over to meet Xi – and start secret negotations with China – and find a solution over the Daioyou’s. China baost about win win negotiations rather than zero sum gain ones – so Abe could put them t the test. An ex Japanese official said that this would be easy to do diplomatically. Then Abe can have a summit with Xi – and announce a diplomatic deal – and announce a renewed and deeper friendship with China. The confrontational politics that Hillary Clinton introduced with China is for losers – and Jaan will only lose by follwoing the path of theft and aggression.

          • Guest

            Hand on a second, I have got many things which I have not used them for years but I am doubtful if anyone can steal them. They are in my house, my house has the security system that links to the police, beside that 2 big Rottweilers are always keeping their eyes on any stranger. Now, you see even the ones I don’t use but they are mine and nobody can take them away.

  • Truth

    The Senkakus are Japanese. Unfortunately for China, the Japanese followed the law to the letter on this issue … and it was of no interest to China until gas reserves were found.

    Even the official Chinese maps of the region showed the islands as Japanese, maps the Chinese are now desperately censoring and removing from their own public.

    It is as if England claims ownership of a part of France because it said so in the legends of King Arthur. The Chinese mind is warped by decades of Communist Party propaganda that is it incapable of discerning between myth and reality, and afraid to do so out of fear of persecution.

    On top of which, their propagandist are cheap to buy. You can hire 100 Chinese propagandists for the price of one Western PR assistant!

    Can the Anglophone social media survive the Chinese onslaught any more than the Tibetans or other ethnic minorities within the region, like the persecuted Uyghurs, did?

    • Far East

      Exactly.
      If we had to follow their logic, the world would have to give them not only Taiwan but also South Korea since those territories were freed by the Japanese from the Qing Empire in 1895 with the Treaty of Shinonoseki….

    • nukenip9595

      hope you get your stomach eviscerated.

    • chinditone

      If the islands are Japanese – why are there no records of Japan having owned the Diaoyou islands before they stole the Diaoyou in 1895. If the Islands are Japanese why di the Potsdam Declaration ask Japan to return the islands along with the other stolen war booty? If the islands are Japanese why did the US steal them in the San francsico Treaty and exclude China. If the Diaoyou islands are Japanese, why did Richard Nixon have to do a trade deal with the Japnese in exchange for stopping Cotton exports to the USA?
      http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656

      The Diaoyou Islands are obviously 100% stolen, which is why Japan is refusing to admit that there is a sovereignty problem and take the Diaoyou case to the ICJ. Japan was very quicj to take the Dodko islands to the ICJ – which proves Japan’s hypocricy – and theft!!

      • Truth

        Why do you keep saying Japan is refusing to take the Senkaku issue to the ICJ?

        Do you think, like Goebbels, that if you tell a lie a 1,000 times it will become truth?

        You had this explained to you many times now. It’s legal principle. There is evidence Japan owns the islands now. if China disputes that it is up to them to take Japan to the ICJ.

        That’s the end of the conversation.

        • chinditone

          sTruth – you must mold yourself on the great Nazi propaganda chief – as you are always light on facts and heavy on accusations and insults. Insults are just empty words – as Henry Kissinger stated that “insolence is the weapon of the powerless”. Funny how there is no proof of Japan owning the islands before 1895. Funny how Japan was asked to retun the Diaoyou by the Potsdam Declaration and has not. Funny how Japan tries to pretend that the Treaty of Sanfrancisco gives them the right to the Diaoyou’s when the owners of the Diayou islands were never a signoratoree to the treaty.(Remember me comparing it to your neighbours stealing your property and then signing a statement without you to say ihts theirs – which is what was done att he Treaty of San Francsico) Funny how Ricard Nixon agreed to give the Japanese adminstration rights for their reducing their textile exports to the USA. Funny how Noda was running scared of the soverignty issue and the ICJ over the Diaoyou – but was such a big law abiding operator that he wanted to take the South Koreans to the ICJ over the Dodko issue. Funny that!!

          • Truth

            Under International Law, there is no proof of anyone owning them prior to 1895. That is the definition of Terra Nullius.

            Japan staked it claims lawfully and, at the time, it was unopposed.

            Now, if China comes along 100 years later after gas reserves are found only to stake its claim, the it has to take the matter to the International Court of Justice.

            That is the way the law works.

            As for you, if you are neither Chinese nor Japanese your opinions are utterly insignificant. The question is, why would you be so motivated?

            The only obvious reason, based on your chosen name, would have to be anti-Japanese racism based on WWII propaganda.

            In most countries it would not just be an offence to take the name of a distinguished regiment but considered a little unstable to do so too.

          • Zhijian Xi

            “Japan staked it claims lawfully and, at the time, it was unopposed.”
            Japan also staked it claims to many other teritories at the pre-WWII era, including Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan, South East Asia. They returned those teritories after defeat in WWII, correct?

          • Whirled Peas

            Hi Zhijian — Not the same thing. Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan, and SE Asia were not terra nullius (unoccupied, unclaimed), and they were taken by force or coercion. After WWII Japan renounced those territories in strict accordance with the Potsdam Terms of Surrender (1945), which Japan fulfilled right after the war or soon thereafter. The Senkakus were not spoils of war and therefore the Allies, including Chiang-kai Shek did not require Japan to relinquish them. The Allies did however occupy Japan’s 4 main islands from 1945-1952 and Okinawa (including Senkaku) from 1945 to 1972 (Okinawa Reversion). The Allies’ plan for the Okinawa islands was either eventually return them to Japan or make them a trusteeship under the UN (which would pose problems of who would absorb the cost of administration.) . Allies opted to return Okinawa islands, and what US got was continued use of Okinawan as a military base plus Japan had to absorb a portion of the cost of “hosting the base. What Japan got was a source of security, which it needed because Japan itself was not permitted to have a military, only self-defense and would be a sitting duck. The eventual fate of Okinawa has no bearing on the Senkaku issue because the Allies always saw the Senkaku’s as part of the Okinawa/Ryukyu.WP

          • chinditone

            WP -it is precisely the same thing. Many ignorant people think that Japans aggression and war criminal mentality started with Pearl Harbour – but it in fact started in the late 1800′s and with the war against china. All the Allies recognised this during World War 2 which is why Japan was asked to relinquish all “its solen lands” which included teh Diaoyou. “(8) The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.” http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

          • Zhijian Xi

            Chinese consider Shenkaku part of the islands chains around Taiwan, which also include Penghu islands etc. China lost Shenkaku around the same time it lost Taiwan. Shenkaku is most close to Taiwan than Mainland China or Japan. They are not terra nullius, they are so close to Taiwan, and most Taiwan fisherman regard the area as traditional fishing grounds. in 1895, Japan has already conquered Taiwan, do you expect governor of Taiwan object to this claim of terra nullius by Japan? There were not strong government in China around 1895, they could not protect even large areas like Manchuria and Taiwan, let alone Shenkakus. However, as a modern and civilized country, Japan should not take advantage of China in this sneaky way.

          • Whirled Peas

            Yes, Taiwan was ceded to Japan by the unequal Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. But China did NOT cede the Senkakus by that Treaty because Japan had annexed it already terra nullius (albeit only a few months prior).. Also, proximity does not determine ownership. If it did,, should ownership of Paracels and Spratly also be based on which country they are closest to? Nor does fishing in the waters. Okinawan/Ryukyuans also fished all the time in those waters.It was an Okinawan fisherman who in 1884 asked Japan government to annex the uninhabited rocks to begin with, so he could set up a dried fish factory and a feather factory.. And anyone fishing around the Senkakus from 1895 to 1945 couldn’t miss seeing the pier and factories and many people working on and around the island. There were around 200 employees. Then from 1945 to 1972 they would have seen the US occupation of the islands. US even used the islands for target practice. And how do we know the Taiwan governor even wanted to object back in 1895. It is doubtful that the Senkakus were incorporated into Taiwan at that time. There are islands even closer to Taiwan than Senkaku, and they hadn’t been made a part of Taiwan by 1895. Also, it wasn’t until Japan took control that Taiwan was organized into provinces so Taiwan couldn’t have assigned the Senkaku’s to Toucheng province prior to 1895 or so. I sympathize with the Taiwanese fishermen though, and I think some kind
            of joint fishing agreement should/could be worked out so they can
            continue fishing as before. Anyway, the detective work continues. Take care. Remember to set your clock forward. WP.

          • Zhijian Xi

            I understand you are repeating the Japanese official reasons, which has been repeated many times by Japanese netizens. These explanations can not change Chinese views of the island, which I stated above( and not repeat).
            I honestly think Deng Xiaoping and Zhou Enlai were the wise man, and their wisdom and proposals still is the best way going forward.
            Having two great peoples as Japan and China going against each other for such issues, expecially it carries WWII hatred, absolutely makes no sense. Neither side will gain anything.
            The current crisis started with Tokyo governor trying to purchase the islands, with strong public support. What does Japan and Tokyo citizens want gain out of this purchase? After all, Japan had already have effective control of the islands, and China was content and not challenging Japan’s control. Can not figure out the motivation from Japan’s perspective, please enlighten me.

          • Whirled Peas

            From what I understand Japan under former PM Noda wanted to make sure that Tokyo governor Shintaro Ishihara wouldn’t get his hands on the Senkakus because he is known to be unpredictable, a loose-cannon type, and represents the ultra-conservative thinking. Ishihara planned to put the Senkakus under the Tokyo prefecture admin. and build structures on it. If a private citizen owned the islands or even the local Tokyo gov’t, they could do whatever they wanted with it. Ishihara had managed to get donations for the purchase and I think he had enough to put in a decent bid. But the government was determined to outbid him so they’d be able to maintain order. And the rest is history! I don’t think Noda expected the strong response from China. WP

          • Zhijian Xi

            I agree with you. My interpretation is they screwed up.

          • Truth

            How and in comparison to what?

            The Islands had already been on lease to the central government for the past 10 years. The purchase of the rights by the GoJ has nothing to do with the actual ownership or control which was already Japan’s.

            Whirled Peas is correct it was a good move to remove private owners from the equation. Are you suggesting they should have just handed them to … who?

          • Zhijian Xi

            Japan should freeze all activities regarding the islands. Do as what Deng prescribed in 1978, and not start a row un-provoked.

          • Truth

            Which would leave it as Japanese territory.

            Would China recognize that? And if China refuses to recognize that, what then should Japan do?

          • Zhijian Xi

            As the US said, Japan only has the administration rights for the moment, leave the soveiranty issue un-decided (and for future discussion, and remove this contentious point for the time being). Although this is the US position, China will not publicly say they totally agree, I think they will go along. This effectively goes back to status quo before Japan started this round of row.

          • Truth

            China needs to be brought to heel, accept international law and the authority of the ICJ. Not just for this issue but every such issue with other nations where it is required. It very difficult to know which “round” started when, and who was responsible for it, except for the claims made in 1970/71. China’s violations of Japan’s territory have been persistent.

            And China recently locking on weapons radar. I am amazed at the SDF’s patience and control in the matter.

            Do you refer to Clinton’s statement and her confirmation of the U.S. support of Japan due to the Security Treaty? In law, that would mean the same as ownership.

            Bear in mind the situation is bigger than just the rocks and the gas reserves. It’s also a matter of the upto 200 miles EEZ in the middle of the East China Sea which is of great strategic importance.

            My concern would be all this brinkmanship is all just being used as a distraction for internal politics within Japan. It’s also typical behavior of China to test out new leaders.

          • Zhijian Xi

            I think I’ve proposed all sorts of compromises which could be accepted by both side, each were rejected by Truth. If this reflects the general attitude from Japanese population, then I see no peaceful solution insight. Japan had tried to “Brought China to heel” for years before 1945 to a much weaker China, I don’t know why would Japan think it could bring China to heel now.
            I see this discussion is diverging into a much broader can of worms, which I have no interest of discussing further. Anyhow, this discussion have helped me understand Japanese perspective regarding the issue, and why they behaved this way. To that end I thank both Truth and JP.
            I think the conclusion of this discussion have made me realize how divided the tow peoples are. Focusing on Shenkaku/Diaoyu is not good for either side. I wish great figures like Premier Zhou Enlai and PM Tanaka will emerge to bring more positive notes to the China Japan relationship.
            English is a second language for me, read “sneaky” as in the US English terms, and as referring to the past militarilist. No offense to the Modern Japan, which I have great deal of respect in spite of the flaws I pointed out in my comments.

          • Truth

            You deliberately misrepresent me out of prejudice and to appeal to and reinforce prejudices.

            It is not a question of Japan “bringing the CPC to heel” (I cannot and do not blame the Chinese people as still have little real democracy, few human rights and no free press), it is question of the ‘international community’ bring their increasingly despotic rulers being brought to accept international law and the international court of justice as a means to resolving conflicts, not threats and war.

            Read that again … accept international law and the international court of justice.

            What could be wrong with that? Answer this.

            It is not a division between Chinese people and Japanese people, it is a division between those who are willing to accept and follow international laws and those who are not. ‘Those who seek to use the court to resolve conflicts of interest’, and ‘those who seek to use the threat of violence’.

            On which side do you stand?

            It would appear that the only proposal you have made is that Japan accepts China’s wishes at a later date … after it has taken Taiwan presumably although you avoid stating that clearly.

            Am I correct in my understanding of your position?

            What I don’t see in all that you have written is on what ground China claims the Senkakus, except on the basis of some medieval notion.

            If you had wished to use a geographical argument, there are better ones than the islands proximity to the ‘soon to be Chinese’ Taiwan, e.g. the continental shelf argument. That is a case China could argue at the Court.

            Honest question … why won’t China accept International Law and the International Court of Justice?

          • Zhijian Xi

            “Honest question … why won’t China accept International Law and the International Court of Justice?”

            This was fully discussed between you and Chinditone, I am seeing no winners. No need to digress into that direction for my discussion. My impression from the discussion between you and Chinditone is that Japan is refusing ICJ, not China.

            “It would appear that the only proposal you have made is that Japan accepts China’s wishes at a later date … after it has taken Taiwan presumably although you avoid stating that clearly.

            Am I correct in my understanding of your position?”

            No, as I said, do as Deng Xiaoping proposed, shelve the dispute if you can not resolve it peacefully now.

            “If you had wished to use a geographical argument, there are better ones than the islands proximity to the ‘soon to be Chinese’ Taiwan, e.g. the continental shelf argument. That is a case China could argue at the Court.”
            I give up presenting you with evidences and reasons, as I see from other threads, you are not accepting those proposed. You are stuck with this right wing notion of Japanese. I don’t wish to change you though.
            Your denying of comfort women, Nanjing, defending and beautifying Japan’s occupation of Korea, Taiwan convinced me you are an ultra-nationlist. You are still defending Japan’s imperial past, which as I said does not bode well for Modern Japan.

          • Truth

            Do you understand that, legally, Japan cannot take the Senkaku case to the ICJ because it has legal sovereignty? That, legally, if China disputes that it must initiate proceedings?

            Shelve the dispute until when and for what purpose … to reclaim Taiwan and hand over Senkaku to China?

            You are not answer the question regarding Taiwan and you have provided no evidence to support China’s claim (except a weak geographical one that it is nearer to Taiwan.

            Unfortunately, Taiwan is a separate sovereign nation from China and so if it is Taiwan’s it cannot be China’s.

            Go on, write it … spell it out clearly … “Yes, I believe Taiwan belong to China and Japan must give China the Senkakus without argument”.

            As I have stated clearly, I do not see this as a nationalist issue. It is an issue of the law alone.

            Will China accept the law and its courts?

          • Truth

            “Sneaky” applied to Japan is an extremely racist epithet, on a par with “greedy Jews” or “dirty blacks”. The acquisition of the Senkaku was not “sneaky”, it was entirely in accordance with International Law. Fact.

            However, the Taiwan issue is part of this. One argument is, “they’re ours because Taiwan is ours” which, of course, the Taiwanese disagree with.

            China considers the islands part of Taiwan and China considers Taiwan part of China.

            Will China take back Taiwan first and then demand the Senkaku, or does it see the Senkaku as a stepping stone to taking Taiwan? Today, both appear unlikely. Paradoxically, the Taiwan claim on the islands comes from a Chinese Nationalist point of view, the children of the Kuomintang.

            Again, the problem is the People’s Republic of China (PRC) attitude towards the law.

            Whilst claiming to be the successor of the Republic of China (ROC) and Quin Dynasty, it refuses to accept and acknowledge international agreements made by the ROC and the Quin Dynasty before it. International Laws, and the ICJ is the forum to resolve conflicts within International Law, not threats, harassment and coordinated violence against property and business as happened last year.

            The Communist Party of China (CPC) wants what it want and does not accept what it does not want in an entirely unilateral, autocratic, exaggerated and schizophrenic manner; backed up by the threat or actual violence, as is often seen within China. It wants to export its way of doing things out into the international realm.

            Why? What is its motivation? It’s only money and power.

            I cannot say, China or Chinese people “want” because their very thoughts are censored, indoctrinated and ruled by extreme fear. They are not free and informed.

          • Zhijian Xi

            You are talking about activities conducted by the past imperialist military administration during 1895. The atrocities they committed some times is worst than sneaky. In my other post, I said the modern Japan is much better off breaking clean of its imperial past. Defending a small piece of islands as not sneaky, while acknowledge and condemn the way they acquire Taiwan, Manchuria, Korea during the same time does not bode well for Japan.

          • Zhijian Xi

            What about Pearl Harbor, was that sneaky?

          • Whirled Peas

            But we’re not talking about Pearl Harbor, and it is a red herring to point to unrelated events to bolster your argument about a specific event.. Each event has to be judged by the evidence pertaining to that particular case. If you committed burglary 5 times, it doesn’t mean you’re the one who robbed the local convenience store last night at 7 pm, and you would not be convicted (in democratic courts) based on past behavior but by examination of the evidence pertaining to the case iin question. Likewise, just because Japan acquired Manchuria, Taiwan etc.during it’s Imperial period does not mean it took the Senkakus from China. I certainly recognize that Japanese committed aggression against China and don’t worry, Americans won’t forget Pearl Harbor, but that has nothing to do with who owns the Senkakus.

          • Truth

            American had already entered the war against Japan.

            The war had started before Pearl Harbor and the American leaders knew about it. What was “sneaky” was America fighting a proxy war against Japan via the Chinese.

            However, I agree, to raise such unconnected and prejudicial issues to “poison the well” is extremely disingenuous. Or one might say, “sneaky”.

            American are, in general, often as uninformed about their own government’s history and actions as the Chinese people. Of course, I do not criticize all Americans just as I do not criticize all Chinese but both have a certain interest in portraying Japan falsely and in a persistently prejudicial light. If anything, American’s war time prejudices against Japan are stronger because of their racial element where as China and Japan share a heritage in common DNA.

            However, if you actually stop for a moment and study the history closely, you see that Japan went to extraordinary lengths to act according international laws and treaties but, behind it all, were what Zhijian Xi would call Americans “sneaky” policy of domination of the Asia-Pacific region.

            As an Asian-American you must be somewhat conflicted in your loyalties.

            Personally, why I can see it is reasonable that China and Japan might go head to head from time to time, I see absolutely no reason why American ought to be on this side of the Pacific and meddling with Asian affairs.

            Of course, we know why it is, and it is nothing noble. It is only about money, and as the center of power is set to move away from the USA and across to Asia in this century.

          • Truth

            Sorry, WP, that was a reply to Zhijian Xi.

          • Truth

            They were not all taken by force and I am not sure why you would use the word “coercion” unless to in some way connect it to the alleged comfort women issue.

            Japan was given land already occupied by European imperialists and the annexing of Korea was legal under international law, and supported by the USA and parties within Korea, as it could not defend itself from Russian aggression.

          • Zhijian Xi

            I suggest you give up defending Japan’s Imperialist. This shows Japan has not completed realized it’s mistakes, and have done a poor job educating it’s post WWII generations (I assume you were born after the war)

          • Guest

            There weren’t any owner of Senkaku before 1895. If there was then why the owner didn’t scream out or didn’t say a word to oppose to JP from 1895 to 1971 which was 76 years? Your comment can only fool the brainwashed Chinese.

          • chinditone

            Guest – you really do need to learn some facts before you speak. China has owned the Diaoyou’s since the 1300′s – take a read and educate yourself. http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island

          • Far East

            WikiChina.CN as a genuine source of information? Seriously? Rolling on the floor LMFAO!!!!! Thanks, you made my day!

        • Guest

          To Truth, the guy you argue with is a member of 50 cents army CN. Doesn’t matter how many times you explain, he won’t take it. He will continue asking the same question, CN principal is exactly what you have said ” tell lie 1000 times then people will believe”. VN found a serial of maps that were published and printed by CN from 1900 to 1946 in which Hainam was the last southern part of CN but the 50 cents army will continue is saying Paracels and Spratly are CN because Zheng He (imagining person?) had traveled thru the see in 15th century. Yes, it is exactly same with Senkaku, Chinese was passing Senkaku before 1895. And because Chinese were passing the areas so they are CN, LMAO, That’s CN’s logic.

          • Truth

            Remind me never to invite Jackie Chan to my home, or to allow a Chinese people to pick flowers in my local park.

            In 75 years time, the Chinese government will turn up and demand it as their territory.

      • Guest

        This guy is repeating non sense: JP scares of ICJ. JP is not in position to file but till now JP has not shown she would reject to attend the court. CN should take JP to ICJ. By look at the situation in SCS where Philippines takes CN to the court, we all can tell if CN is really having evidence.

        • chinditone

          Mr “One Trick Pony” – we are not discussing the ICJ anymore – you are just repeating waht others have said. The Phillipines is not part of this discussion

    • chinditone

      Well the way to fix the Diaoyiu mess and to restore China/Japan relations is for the Japnse to reverse their nationalisation of the Diaoyou islands. http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107151284

      • Truth

        When Japan claimed the islands as Terra Nullis it painstakingly fulfilled all the requirements under International Law for it to do so. You should read up on all the steps it took to do so.

        There was no evidence of the islands having be owned, occupied or marked.

        This is where you diatribe fails. Japan actually followed and follows International law. Chinese still refused to which is why it is criticized.

        • chinditone

          It looks like the Chinese are being nice and giving teh Japanese an oppotunity to save face by denationalising. Of course the Japanese broke their agreement with Deng fom 1978 not to stir up trouble – but thats the law abiding Japanese for you. The Japanese were mean’t to to be adminitrators not owners – and they used the nationalisation to try and steal it – thats the law abiding Japanese for you. The Japanese deny there is a sovereignty issue becuase they don’t want to face the ICJ – thats the law abiding Japanese for you. The Japanese stole the historically Chinese islands in 1895 – thats the law abiding Japanese for you. The Japanese saigned the Potsdam Declaration agreeing to return the Diaoyou’s but have failed to do so – thats the law abding Japanese for you. The Japanese signed the Traety of Sanfrancisco without the Chinese to steal the Diaoyou’s by stealth – thats the law abiding Jpanese for you. The Japanese agreed to reduce textile exports to the US in 1972 – so that they could administer the stolen Diayou islands – thats the law abiding Jpanese for you. Funny how the list of misdemeanours is quiet a large one – for the law abiding Japanese. Maybe law abding and Japanese are a contradiction in terms when it come to the Diaoyou’s – and such land grabiing stealing behaviour is not a thing of Japan’s past! Funny that!!

          • Truth

            Only in your increasingly unstable and poisoned mind which is looping around in ever smaller and smaller circles.

            Look, you know the answer. Propaganda and slur does not win a legal dispute. It’s international law. If China has a problem, it is for them to take it to the International Court of Justice, not Japan. That is the law.

            Do you have a problem with the law?

            You claim to be Jewish and your gripe is against War Criminals.

            Is that all war criminals or are you saying all Japanese are war criminals?

            If you are against war criminals, and not just an anti-Japanese racist, why don’t you start by cleaning out the Knesset?

          • chinditone

            Is stealing the Diayou’s in 1895 the law? Is signing the Potsdam Declaration agreeing to return the Diaoyou and yet failing to hand them over to China/Taiwan the law? Is signing the Treay of San Francisco without Taiwan or China and faking ownership of the Diaoyiu the law? Is doing an illegal deal with Richard Nixon over the Diaoyou in 1972 in exchange for reducing Japanese textiles the law? Is breaking the agreemnet with Deng over not to take unilateral action over the Diayou the law? I am still waiting for you to put up some decent arguments Mr sTruth. Rememebr what Henry Kissinger said about insults and slurs – “insolence is the weapon of the powerless”. As a word of advice – never show your opponent in a debate that you are powerless by stooping to insults.

            Who knows – Japan and China may yet work the issue out – without embarrassing the US any further for the US’s disgraceful behaviour in the issue. I really love the part of this Richard Nixon artilce where the US was asked to hold on to the Diaoyous until the sovereignty issue with China/ Taiwan was sorted – but Nixon decided to sucker the Jpanese and get them to adminster the Diaoyou’s in retun for reducing Jpanese textiles to the US. If you are Japanese you musery vt be feeling angry with the US over this scam. Now China is demanding their islands back. Tricky Dicky Nixon tricked the Japanese!! http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+considered+withholding+return+of+Senkaku+Islands+to+Japan.-a0109021656

          • Truth

            I’ll offer better advice to what readers of this thread are left …

            “Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

            You’re mind is obviously poisoned with irrational anti-Japanese racism. It is blinding you and you can no longer make sense of the issue.

            You’re involvement with this issue is worse that futile and meaningless as it is only portraying the pro-Chinese as being even more irrational.

            If you’re a Jew and considered about territorial rights, why not start by making sure the Palestinians are given back their land?

            Why get involved in someone else’s fight?

            What is this … ‘Land Grabbers United’ week?

            Japan peacefully followed International Law over this issue. That is why it has such a strong case.

            If China or anyone else has a problem with them, it is their responsibility to take it to the International Court of Justice.

          • chinditone

            sTruth – with your logic – anyone who does not agree to the Japanese stealing the historcailly Chinese Diaoyou’s islands is a racist. Anyone who has the decency to read all the facts and establish the real truth of the Jpanese ignoring the Potsdam Declaration and conniving with Ricrad Nixon in 1972 to setal the Diaoyou by stealth is a racist.

            I hate to tell you this mr sTruth – but you are an ignorant Japanese nationalist who has no regard for the truth and no regard for the law. I hate to tell you this mr sTruth – but that is exactly how the war criminals who stole teh Diaoyou Islands and who stole large parts of Asia before and during world war 2 behaved!!

            Japan is only peaceful at the point of a gun – just like a thief is only peaceful – when he is locked up in jail and can do no harm. Why do you think the rest of Asia is 100% against Japan re-arming? Unless the thief can prove he has reformed hos ways – he should not be let out of jail.

            As I’ve repeated and repeated – please provide facts to back up your case – and stop writing nonsense.

          • Truth

            It was not stealing because under International Law, the Senkaku Islands were Terra Nullius. They belonged to no one.

            Japan peacefully and assiduously followed the protocols of International Law and established its rights of ownership.

            I am sorry but an Empress Dowager gathering herbs does not, under International Law, establish the right of ownership.

          • fe6238299

            would happily splatter your brains all over the place with a nice shotgun.

          • Zhijian Xi

            “Japan peacefully and assiduously followed the protocols of International Law and established its rights of ownership.”
            Japan established it rights of ownership to Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan by the same peaceful and assiduously means. Let me know why Japan does not continue to own them now.

          • Truth

            A simple and accurate answer would be ‘because someone contested them’.

            An even more accurate answer would be because, in the light of the European imperial powers being weakening due to WWII, the USA took its chance to establish its imperial domination of the Pacific-Asia region through hegemonic rule … which, in essence, it is still extended through its containment and encirclement of China.

            … Of which this dispute is a small element or sub-plot.

            However, I must correct you. You cannot draw parallels between how Japan acquired those other territories and how it acquired the Senkaku Islands.

            You will apparently be disappointed to read that Japan did indeed first acquire them in a very boring, peaceful, scientific and legal manner. No excitement whatsoever.

          • Zhijian Xi

            Chinese considers Shenkakus as part of island chains of Taiwan. You are seperating them for convenience of your argument, and keeping them from obligations from WWII.
            The same evidence, which were gathered and established in 1895 were carried out by the imperial military government of Japan. Japan is better off renoucing those imperial heritages, and keep a clean cut from their imperial past. The Germans has done a much better job.
            There are two much revisions and second thought from Japan regarding their WWII defeet. Japan apologied many times, but some politicians think Japan should not apologise so deeply. Japan apologied about the comfort women issue, but some former PMs and current PMs think there’s no coersion. Japan fullfilled all of its WWII obligations, but thinks some teritories are not part of these obligations. Japan acknowleges misconduct in Nanjing, but the killings were not so much. You see what I am getting? That’s the Japan in Chinese eyes.

          • Truth

            The comfort women issue has nothing to do with the Senkakus and it’s very difficult for the Chinese and Americans to understand the nature of the Tenno. In truth, the word “emperor” is wrong and Tenno is far better.

            The problem is, the Chinese think of the Tenno according to the corruption in Chinese tradition and the Americans according to war-like European traditions, but the Japanese Tenno is of a different nature and plays a different role in Japanese society. Much more humble and spiritual.

            Prostitution is traditional business in Asia and it still operates today very much as it did 70 years ago. If there was coercion, it was carried out by the Korean and Chinese agents who supplied the Japanese Army and who made lots of money out of the business, as did many prostitutes. Where abuses were found, historical records prove it was punished.

            Yes, there is lots of misinformation about the military prostitution and if you want to discuss the latest studies and findings we can do rationally but it is very difficult for many to do so because they have been so deliberately misinformed in the past and the Japanese politicians have been mistranslated, or partial translated.

            Yes, the claims have been grossly exaggerated for political reasons like this one and, yes, there is a gross lack of evidence for most of the claims.

            Despite decades of research by numerous parties, there really is next to no evidence. For example, you will discover that the 200,000 figure was only an estimate, and from a Japanese historian, and it has since been withdraw due to the lack of evidence. Rather than to be blamed for the issue, modern day Japanese have been at the forefront of bring the issue out into the public whereas, for example, in China it was a non-issue until about the same the dispute over the Senkakus arose in the 70s.

            Are you speaking as an American or a Chinese, because the history and cultural influences are different?

            I am sorry but Japan has paid, apologized and compensated more than any. More than Germany which has, in fact, not apologized for its sex crimes, nor the USA, nor Korea for that matter; and China is in no position to point its finger at anyone. Japan renounced belligerence and has returned to its peaceful and lawful heritage whereas the USA, China and even Korea has continued on fighting, killing and abusing women. Or babies in China’s case.

            It strikes me you have a very simplistic understanding which could even appear prejudiced and onesided if I was to take a harsh view of it but I will not because I realise that you are just not yet well informed yet. I am happy to assist you in becoming better informed about all these topics.

            All I would like to ask you is not to jump to conclusions based on propagandistic points of view.

            Japan should not bow to China and Korea’s wills if China and Korea’s wills are not grounded in international law, and China and Korea should not enforce their will aggressively unless they are. That is what is important.

            The court, not the battlefield, is the place to resolve issues today … our problem is China and Korea refuses to do so.

            Why? What are they afraid of?

          • chinditone

            Actually – this was covered in the Potsdam Convention which recognised the Diaoyou as part of the Jpanese theft of properties – including Manchuria, South Korea etc etc. The Potsdam Declation stipulated that they all be returned including the Diaoyou’s. “(8) The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.” http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

          • chinditone

            sTruth – they were never ever Terra Nullius – and have historically Chinese. Take a read and educate yourself.http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/index.php/Diaoyu_Island

            Please give us all your address – so that we can all raid your house and steal its items – and then legally claim the goods are ours – because they were not being used when we found them.Its the same logic as the empty Terra Nullius argument – and you would rightfully be very upset if we did in fact do this.

            Speaking of international law – why did the Jpanese not return the Diaoyou’s as instructed under the Potsdam Declaration? Speakig of international law – why did President Nixon’s aides tell him that the ownership issue of teh Diaoyou’s had not been resolved when the US gave Jpan teh administration rights in exchange for stopping selling cotton to the US?

            You don’t have a credible argument and you don’t have any credible facts. Why? Because tehre are not any. Japanese war criminals illegally stole the islands – and the descendants of these war criminals are refusing to give them back to China

          • Guest

            The agreement with Deng? Does that agreement really exist? JP was saying no such of agreement or if JP had signed. I am interested to that piece of document, please share it for my reference.

          • Truth

            It seems as if “agreement” in Mandarin translates as, “We said it”.

          • Zhijian Xi

            You are correct, Chinese took as a mutual understanding (agreement) as “We said it” to you, and you did not raise objections.

            I think there’s a cultural issue which might have contributed to the mis-understanding. To the Japanese, by not saying a word to Premier Zhou Enlai in 1972, and to Deng Xiaoping in 1978, means I dis-agree with you. However, the Chinese have taken it as “I agree with you”.

            In China if I say something to you and you don’t object, that means I take it as you don’t oppose what I said. If I executed duties and policies for over 35 years with this understanding, and you turn around and tell me I dis-agree with you in 1978, but I kept it in my heart and did not tell you at the time. This will infuriate any person in China, even in regular business or personal dealings.
            I am not Japanese, tell me if a regular person in this stuation, whether this is normal behavior in Japan.

          • Truth

            I am sorry, I have to reject this interpretation. China and Japan have a very long history and understand each other very well. Japan asserted their sovereignty legally. It’s like registering a car, once you’ve done it once, you don’t have to keep doing every year. It stands until you sell it.

            The problem is with China’s not accepting International Law and, apparently, interfacing with the international community.

            I see Deng Xiaoping wisely saying, “let’s not argue about today”. I don’t see evidence of the future “wisdom” he spoke of in the 2012 rioting which, we know, was partly coordinated by the State.

            Deng didn’t say, “we going to come and kick your ass later”. Or did he? China was militarily weak then, today the USA is militarily weak. Japan probably has the short term advantage, but China the long term.

            Who knows what it is really all about … perhaps someone just wanted a distraction from all the talk about Wen Jiabao’s hidden family billions.

            When there is a lot of political noise, it’s often best to look in the opposite directions to see what it is they are tried to bury and hide.

          • Zhijian Xi

            “I am sorry, I have to reject this interpretation.”

            This mentality is the source of the misunderstanding between Japan and China. The Chinese felt the current leaders of the Japanese government with popular support in Japan has broken from their past and mutual understandings.

            “I see Deng Xiaoping wisely saying, “let’s not argue about today”. I don’t see evidence of the future “wisdom” he spoke of in the 2012 rioting which, we know, was partly coordinated by the State.”
            The rioting was an angry response to Japan’s provocation (I am not saying it was right), was there wisdom from Japan in Purchasing the islands?

            I have read so much regarding evidences from you or other Japanese commentators regarding the evidences why Japan own them. They are not convincing, and believe me you won’t change Chinese views regarding the ownership of these islands. They are most close to Taiwan, China lost both Tainwan and Shenkakus to Japan around the same time. They should be returned to China after WWII.

            I see no point of arguing and providing evidence from either side, the point is both side have some pretty strong evidences of why they think the islands belong to them.

            I see some pretty sinical accusations of why the Chinese government reacted this way, have you wondered why the issue was first provoked and started from Japan?

          • Zhijian Xi

            “I am sorry, I have to reject this interpretation.”
            If you behave in a similar manner as a normal business person, you will be viewed as tricky and shrewd, and not trust worthy.

          • Truth

            I suppose, being Chinese, you might have better expertise in that area than I do but in Japan such matters are done differently and according to international law.

            What is “sneaky” or “untrustworthy” about that?

            Please let’s keep this civil and not engage at the level of personal insults,

            On what grounds does China make its claim? How did it establish sovereignty?

          • Truth

            Do I understand now your position is that they should belong to Taiwan, or do you also believe Taiwan belongs to the PRC too?

            Japan spent 10 years surveying the islands according to the standards of international law and found no prior evidence of occupation.

            Surely in that time, if they have been owned someone would have noticed and complained?

            The results and intentions were published. No government objected.

            The islands were leased out and occupied by up to 200 Japanese people at their peak. No government objected.

            They were even used by the USA as bombing targets. No government objected.

            They were shown as Japanese on PRC maps up until the 1960s. No governments objected.

            In fact, no government objected until after gas was found. Funny coincidence, isn’t it?

            According to international law, there are a number of grounds on which to establish ownership; use, occupation, administration etc.

            On what ground does China makes its claim?

          • chinditone

            Why don’t you try and make an arrangement with your local pickpocket or theif – and watch and see if he keeps to it. China has busted Japan for failing to keep the Deng deal and keep the peace. The whole Diaoyou situatation has been created by Japan reneging on the deal and try to steal the islands via nationalisation. Japan’s history of war criminal show what respct Jpan has for the truth, law, and the rights of other Asian countries. China has every right to resist and protect its Diaoyou property.

        • Zhijian Xi

          During the time Japan painstakingly claims Shenkaku as Terra Nullis, it also painstakingly claims Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan etc as belonging to Japan. Now do you follow the orders established pre-WWII or accept defeat and accept new world order? Same logic goes for Japan’s islands dispute with Russia and Korea.

          • Truth

            I am not sure of your point here because, by lacing it with sarcasm and seeking to score points, you are straying into inaccurate misrepresentation.

            Japan has accepted international law and, unlike China, the USA and Russia, avoid all war and aggression internally and externally.

            Whilst each of them has gone on to kill millions and deny populations of human rights Post-WWII, Japan returned to an even greater peace, prosperity and rights than it experienced during the 250 years of Edo Period when it closed its doors to the world. A period when again China, the USA and Russia were tearing themselves and others to pieces.

            On the basis of these two (historically speaking) recent periods of peace and political refinement, I think it is fair to say that that is closer to the real nature of Japan. Very few other nations have done so.

            Logically, it makes the vigorous response to the unprovoked and uninvited American aggression, which opened up Japan in the 1850s appear like an aberration rather than a norm.

            Each of the cases you raise is different and has its own history. It would be better to stick on topic to the Senkaku Islands here.

          • chinditone

            How many people did the Jpanese kill during the Rape of Namjing? How many people did teh Jpanese murder during World War 2. How many “comfort women” did Japan have during world war 2. How many times has Japan said sorry? How many Jpanese war criminals were ever convicted? How many victims has Japan compensated? Why do the Japanese and Jpanese policticians still go and light candles at the shrines of war criminals – at the shrines of people were were the very worst of human beings?

            Japan has commited the worst crimes and worst atrocities in living memery in Asia – as China, South Korea and the rest of Asia well remembers.

            The Diaoyou Island issues is just a very simple case of theft- and the Japanese have been caught – as well as the US who were involved in the theft!! The Diaouou’s were historically Chinese and still are Chinese. Its a fact – as the Chinese surveillance vessels show. Hopefully Jpan can show that they are a respectable nation and not a bunch of thieves and negotiate a return of the islands to China.

        • chinditone

          The Japanese are just thieves – as they were in WW2 and earlier. The Jpanese have zero historical claim over the Diaoyou’s – because they were never ever Japanese islands. The Japanese agreed to the Potsdam Convention in which they agreed to return all stolen property which included the Diaoyou’s and have failed to do so. The Japanese traded the Diaoyou with teh USA for reducing cotton exports to the USA in 1972. The Japanese have zero legal basis to be on teh Diaoyou’s and China has every legal right to evict the Jpanese as illegal tenants and theives. The Jpanase prime mininter Noda admitted that they Jpanese were avoiding the Diaoyou sovereignty issue because he was terrified of facing the Chinese at the ICJ – with such a poor Japanese legal basis for being on teh Diaoyou’s. At the same time – Noda was very keen to challgne the South Koreans on Dodko as the Jpanese flet they had a better case. No one is fooled by the Japanese and least of all the Chinese!! The Japanese were the one’s fooled by Tricky Dicky Nixon into wrecking their cotton industry in exchange for islands which they did not own. Very very stupid.

  • Stephan B. Feibish

    Maybe someone could explain why these Chinese ships have English painted on their side?

    • Think

      Call it the “CNN effect”. Everyone wants to be a media star and appeal to the widest possible and most lucrative market.

    • chinditone

      Its the CCTV effect!! Scroll through pics!! http://english.people.com.cn/90786/8133340.html

  • disqus_sRvdSL9pQf

    China’s bullying of smaller nations should be stopped. Their greed is incredible and mimics Nazi Germany. Brainswashed Chinese don’t even know what’s reality and myth. Japan should support it’s allies Philippines in countering Chinese aggression

    • -observer-

      Bullying !!! what lies have you been feeding disqus_sRvdSL9pQf …

      Last i read the Philipines just got its A$$ handed to them by the malaysians. LOL it was the Pnoi’s that tried to steal land via an invasion of Sabah. And all Benigno Aquino can say is try our luck at the ICJ.
      Good luck with that one!!

  • chinditone

    Here is something for the intellectuals on this board. Whether you agree or not – its the view of a Chinese scholar on the US/Japan/China relationship. Very interesting. http://www.chinausfocus.com/foreign-policy/the-complex-triangular-relations-of-china-japan-and-the-us/

  • Hongkie joe

    chill out people…if there is any country that has the legitimate to solely claim those rocks/island is Taiwan. I dont see a way out of this between Japan and China. With Taiwan as the legit ownership, there will be no more dispute.

  • Think

    Chinditone

    Ignoring the persistent anti-Japanese troll who follows such discussion all over social media threatening to cut people’s throats, eviscerate their guts, behead and kill because they are obviously mentally sub-normal, are you willing and able to talk about what you are doing and why you are doing it, not just repeat all the propaganda and links to Chinese media propaganda sites?

    The truth is, those sites and that kind of propaganda really just do not work in English. They’re just too transparent.

    • chinditone

      Think if you can – I simply follow the news and see through most of it. In this particular instance – on the Diaoyou Islands – the historical facts are against the Japanese and the US. In other instance – like the Kiril Island issue with the Russians – the facts are with the Japanese. On the Dodko issue with the Koreans – it may be 50/50 – I have not looked at the facts. However, on the Diaoyou Islands – when you want to get a good look at the Chinese case and the Japanese case – you have to look at the facts. Also, you need to look at news sources from both sides and sort out the facts from the propaganda. I agree with you on the anti Japanese spammer – his posts should be banned. I would like to see the Japanese and Chinese sit down together and resolve the Diaoyou issue – so that both economies can benefit from each other – in the current world recession – and long into the future. Japan also needs to resolve its security fears with China and set up a treat or security arrangement that will secure a peaceful future for both sides. Obviously Japan needs to maanage its relationship with the USA – so that it does not act as a trojan horse for the USA – and as a military puppet for the USA. Japan needs to establish its own credibility in Asia. Japan may need to work with China on North Korea as South Korea has been doing – and find a peaceful long term solution. Who knows – one day North Korea could be a major trading partner for Japan. Additionally – Taiwan/Korea/South Korea are very very sensitive to any hint of Japanese aggression having suffered at the hands of Japanese war criminals in WW2 – and so Japan needs to give a long term commitment – that this won’t happen again. I would like to see that – so that there is a long term peace arrangement in the region – that does not rely so heavily on the USA. The USA need to get its financial house in order and to heavily trim its military force which are of no benefit to the US economy and the economic future of the US.

      • Think

        Now, firstly, you did exactly what I asked you not to do and launch into more propaganda.

        Secondly, if you want to discuss the matter, can we please call them by their proper name which is currently the Senkaku Islands as they are, by law, Japanese territory.

        What motivates you to do what you are doing?

        Forget the legalese for moment, this is not the environment to resolve that.

        What inspires you to sit and copy and paste all this stuff?

        • rob595959

          catch aids please, and go die

        • chinditone

          Think if you can – you have not managed to refute even one point of mine. You should change your name to “I think not”!!What is yoor motive beyond contributing zero to this board. If you have a case – prove it? If Japan has a historical case to own the Diaoyou’s – prove it? This is a discussion thread – not a nonsense thread!! If you do not have the brainpower to distinguish between proganda and the facts or between truth and lies – you should not post here or at least not ask stupid questions or ake stupid statements!!

  • stubborn-student

    No worries. Japan will teach China another lesson. Let’s wait and see.

    No need for US to get involved. Japan is always the winner to China.

    • Zhijian Xi

      Did Japan win in the last contest of military conflict with China? I forgot who surrenderred un-conditionally to whom?

      • Christopher

        Um. . . I don’t think General MacArthur was Chinese.

  • Whirled Peas

    China claims former PM Noda said Japan refuses to use the ICJ. But in fact, what Noda said was Japan would not initiate proceedings because Japan is not the one disputing ownership of the islands. Japan already has effective control. So with that little misunderstanding cleared up China should rejoice and file an application to the ICJ right away. At the hearing China can provide all of its evidence of ownership and that will be evaluated against Japan’s evidence of ownership, and a legal ruling will be made by experts in international law. Remember:

    (a) Trespassing and squatting in S/D island waters is NOT the same as owning.
    (b) Repeating over and over the arguments that the islands belong to China is NOT the same as owning.
    (c) Even planting a Chinese flag on the S/D islands is NOT the same as owning. It is trespassing and littering.

    China says it wants to resolve the territorial dispute peacefully. The way to challenge Japan’s ownership of those islands peacefully is to submit a case to the ICJ.

  • Whirled Peas

    Moderators and commenters: I think this thread is getting too long because the comments are getting attached to the wrong commenter! I think we’re straining the software. Plus, it is getting impossible to locate comments I’m aiming for. So, as much as it’s been a pleasure, I won’t be posting on this particular thread. All this scrolling is giving me vertigo!